Eugene Wong
Game Log



M1

M1.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27245106#27245106]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Jerival
M1.1 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27273466#27273466]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M1.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27274042#27274042]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah
M1.2 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27280185#27280185]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M1.3 Proposal By Sarah url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27281777#27281777]link to announcement[/url: Johnorama; Sarah
M1.3 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27293260#27293260]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - G{YES
Kait - no
Johnorama - G{YES

M1.4 Proposal By Kaitlyn_RES url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27293292#27293292]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kaitlyn
M1.4 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27304377#27304377]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - R{no

M1.5 Proposal By Johnorama url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27309101#27309101]link to announcement[/url: John; Sarah

Mission Results url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27311903#27311903]link to announcement[/url: SUCCESS; SUCCESS



M2

M2.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27313140#27313140]link to announcement[/url: Kait; Jerival; Rob
M2.1 Vote Record URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27327654#27327654]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - R{no
Johnorama - R{no

M2.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27328786#27328786]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah; Johnorama
M2.2 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27336820#27336820]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M2.3 Proposal By Sarah URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27365685#27365685]link to announcement[/url: Sarah; John; John
M2.3 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27372290#27372290]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - YES
Sarah - YES
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M2.4 Proposal By Kaitlyn_Res URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27372617#27372617]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Sarah; Kaitlyn
M2.4 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27377274#27377274]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no

M2.5 Proposal By John URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27380146#27380146]link to announcement[/url: John; Sarah; John

Mission Results url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27387183#27387183]link to announcement[/url: SUCCESS; SUCCESS; fail



M3

M3.1 Proposal By Rob URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27390736#27390736]link to announcement[/url: Kait; Rob
M3.1 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27397113#27397113]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no

M3.2 Proposal By Jerival URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27397437#27397437]link to announcement[/url: Kait; Sarah
M3.2 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27404278#27404278]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no

M3.3 Proposal By Sarah URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27407517#27407517]link to announcement[/url: Sarah; Johnorama
M3.3 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27410812#27410812]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - YES
Kait - no
Johnorama - YES

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27419071#27419071]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission Results url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27422483#27422483]link to announcement[/url: SUCCESS; fail



M4

M4.1 Proposal By Johnorama URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27428423#27428423]link to announcement[/url: Johnorama; Rob; Sarah
M4.1 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27432532#27432532]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M4.2 Proposal By Rob URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27435011#27435011]link to announcement[/url: Kait; Rob; Sarah
M4.2 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27439513#27439513]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no

M4.3 Proposal By Jerival URL=h]link to announcement[/url:
M4.3 Vote Record URL=h]link to announcement[/url:

Rob -
Jerival -
Sarah -
Kait -
Johnorama -
Eugene Wong
Standby

1. {Any volunteers?}

Variant Rules

Roles & Private Messages

modkiwi's messages should be slightly different, but they should be similar to these.

Plain Old Rebel
"You are a plain old rebel."

Plain Old Spy
"You are a plain old spy. Dr. Jekyll, & Mr. Hyde, are your teammates."
Eugene Wong
PBF Rules:

[Since I ened up modding this, instead of modkiwi, I copied the rules from #240, which have been unchanged since the end of #232, except the game numbers.]

1) Official mission proposals should be in bold contain the mission number and proposal number. For example PBF244: M1.1 Moogle: Chocobo, Natalie. After proposals have been made in bold, they cannot be changed.

2a) All votes and mission cards should be sent to me via GM. Send your vote in the subject line. For example "PBF244 m1.1 YES".

2b) You may vote before a proposal, but you must state that you are doing so to the community, using bold texted. For example, "I already know how I'm voting for the next proposal, so I'm voting now, before his proposal.". You can claim to vote a certain way, but you must not reveal your vote.

2c) You may change a submitted card any number of times (i.e.: YES/NO, PASS/FAIL) but as soon as I receive the card from the last player, no more changes are allowed, even if I'm not there to post the results yet. To change your vote, just submit another private message like before, but submit it with "***change***" or some similar text at the end of your subject line. If you made changes after all the cards were in, I'll tell you which submitted card was the final one.

2d) Also, will all players ensure that this following bolded text is immediately posted after the proposal to ensure a faster game?

Voting links: YES/NO

Be sure to edit the mission number in both links.

2c) Also, if I [i.e.: the moderator] forget to post mission card links, then will all players ensure that this following bolded text is immediately posted after the vote result to ensure a faster game?

Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL

Be sure to edit the mission number in all links.

2d) Per standard PBF etiquette, the fifth proposal/hammer will automatically be sent.

3) There is a non-strict time limit of 24 hrs on every official game action. If you are going to take much longer than that, please post in the thread in advance. Weekends are usually not included.

4) No game-related discussion is allowed outside the thread until the game is completed. This includes GMs between players and posts in other threads. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to ask! No question is to n00bish!

5) Do not edit posts, except in the first minute or so to fix typos. Deleting is an extreme form of editing which is also forbidden. If you do edit, please type why you are editing. Example: Edit - For spelling mistakes.

6) You may not use the Geekroller in this thread for any decisions.

7) Please subscribe to the thread and check in at least daily (exceptions for weekends).

8) Feel free to message me anytime. It makes the game fun for me seeing what your thoughts are as you figure things out.

9) Remember everyone is here to have fun! Bullying, and other unsportsmanship like conduct is frowned upon. You will be given a warning then asked to leave if behavior becomes out of hand.
Kiwi's ModBot
Player list according to ModKiwi:
eugenetswong
Jerival
Johnorama
rwright
SarahBoBara
VirtualAlex

6 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game, post signup in bold.
To remove yourself from this game, post remove in bold.
Kiwi's ModBot
current game status
Kiwi's ModBot
game history
Eugene Wong
For instructions on how to use modkiwi, check out this wiki page.

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/modkiwi


To sign up, just type this in bold.

signup

If you want to assist modkiwi, as I am doing, then type this in bold.

become mod
Rob W
signup
John Agre
signup
Rob W
Howdy John.

Never did a closing comment on our last game. I thought John was Percy and calvin was merlin.
John X

rwright wrote:

Howdy John.

Never did a closing comment on our last game. I thought John was Percy and calvin was merlin.

I was curious about how much you believed in me being a spy.

I still am curious, but I was then too.
John Agre

rwright wrote:

Howdy John.

Never did a closing comment on our last game. I thought John was Percy and calvin was merlin.


I'm not surprised, I didn't have to do much as merlin other than vote correctly and let percy do the interpreting. I did try to shade you right at the end to give myself some cover... not sure if that helped, didn't sound like I was really in the running at the end.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

Howdy John.

Never did a closing comment on our last game. I thought John was Percy and calvin was merlin.

I was curious about how much you believed in me being a spy.

I still am curious, but I was then too.

About halfway thru the m2 proposals I was about 75% on you being RES. Which was the highest it was all game.

But I kept it to myself.
John X
sure
signup
John Agre
remove
Rob W
We are going the wrong way! Surely some of you old Phoagies that read the message boards should just give it a try. Maybe it will be better this time!
Alex Krasny
I am in
Rob W

VirtualAlex wrote:

I am in

Yay. Activate bot by typing sign up in bold.
Eugene Wong
And it has to be 1 word in bold: signup.
Eugene Wong
{VirtualAlex} signup
Sarah
signup
Eugene Wong
We have enough to start a small game. If you all would like to play 5p, then let me know.
Rob W
I'm fine with five players. This game has been in sign ups for so long that I can't imagine we will get more. But I am also fine with waiting a few more days.
Rob W
I would rather play that Lancelot game though. And I also prefer to only be playing one game at a time. So, why don't we wait and see how signups for that one go. Then we can start this game up after that game concludes. Or, start this game if that game cannot find enough players.
Eugene Wong
{Jerival} signup

###

He had expressed interest in playing, once we were ready to go.

###

player count 6
Eugene Wong
autostart on
Eugene Wong
I wonder why this game isn't starting.
Eugene Wong
Apparently modkiwi knows that we need only 6 players. Maybe modkiwi is slow to start.

http://mod-kiwi.appspot.com/
Eugene Wong
If this bot doesn't start by time Roger is ady to go, then let's all join his game.
John Agre

eugenetswong wrote:

Apparently modkiwi knows that we need only 6 players. Maybe modkiwi is slow to start.

http://mod-kiwi.appspot.com/


doesnt the link show this game as 0/7 signed up? dont think it is working as intended.
John Agre
nm, i see it.. multiple 244's
Eugene Wong
The owner of the app was supposed to remove the extra games.

Maybe I should just mod this. Another idea is that we could just wait for roger to start a game, and then we could just signup there.
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

autostart on

Maybe this is the wrong command?
Eugene Wong

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

autostart on

Maybe this is the wrong command?


It looks correct to me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/modkiwi

If you want, I can make you a mod also, and then you can try.
Calvin .
signup
Eugene Wong
player count 6
Eugene Wong
With the other game starting up, Rob will probably go into that game, since he expressed interest in it.

I'll mod this game, if Roger doesn't want to. [edit: I mean, I will mod and won't play, if Roger doesn't mod; otherwise, I'll play]
Eugene Wong

rwright wrote:

I would rather play that Lancelot game though. And I also prefer to only be playing one game at a time. So, why don't we wait and see how signups for that one go. Then we can start this game up after that game concludes. Or, start this game if that game cannot find enough players.

It seems that I ignored Rob, but it actually isn't the case.

If I recalled correctly, I sensed that we would be starting the other game...or something like that.

###

Roger agreed to mod this game, after the other game got started.

###

If any of you prefer to play in the other game, then I encourage you to mention it in the other thread.

I'm more than happy to see anybody playing 2 games.
Sarah
I'm fine with modding one as well!
Eugene Wong
It turns out that we need 2 or 3 more players here. If you've been waiting for a while to play, then come on over.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1861552/pbf-246-lancelot-co...
Calvin .
remove
John Agre
Looks like our mod is going to be gone next weekish.. This isn't exactly moving forward real fast anyhow.. should we just abandon this entirely?

I would like to play, but this month+ between games is a bit excessive.. Is there any other online site where you can play the base game of resistance?
Eugene Wong
Yeah, there is another site. Resistanceonlineplus.com, or something like that.

Another idea is that I just mod a 5p game for you all. I'll get that started later today.

Would all of you confirm that you are willing to play 5p?
Eugene Wong
Okay! The role cards have been sent out, and the seating order has been made.

Be sure to check out the first post of this thread for the game log, where the players are listed in seating order.

eugenetswong wrote:

Game Log



M1

M1.1 Proposal By Rob:
M1.1 Vote Record:

Rob -
Jerival -
Sarah -
VirtualAlex -
Johnorama -


Rob, you get to propose first.
Rob W
M1.1 Rob: Rob, Jerival
Eugene Wong

rwright wrote:

M1.1 Rob: Rob, Jerival


Voting links: YES/NO
Eugene Wong
I sent the last few players a private message a while ago. The last player has yet to respond.

I've already found a replacement player, and will change players, if there is no response soon.
Eugene Wong
Kait volunteered to replace Alex. I've sent her his role card.
Eugene Wong
M1.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27245106#27245106]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Jerival
M1.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Jerival, your turn!
Kaitlyn Smith
Hi all! This ought to be fun - plain Resistance!

To Rob: I'm a spy. If I tell you I'm resistance, you'll think I'm a spy. So I'm trying this.

To the rest of you: Of course I'm resistance.

To Sarah: Nice seeing you again! I missed you.
John Agre
M1.2 Jerival: Jerival, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Hi all! This ought to be fun - plain Resistance!

To Rob: I'm a spy. If I tell you I'm resistance, you'll think I'm a spy. So I'm trying this.

To the rest of you: Of course I'm resistance.

To Sarah: Nice seeing you again! I missed you.

Lol
(I knew it!)
Eugene Wong
ninja

I'm embarrassed to say that I almost voted on this! I'm so used to playing.

ninja
John X
I actually want to vote for this but I don't think it's justifiable.
Eugene Wong
By the way, I updated the voting record to reflect that Kait is playing.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I actually want to vote for this but I don't think it's justifiable.


??

What an odd statement at this stage of the game.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I actually want to vote for this but I don't think it's justifiable.


I can't decide what to make of it. Or if I even should. I dont think I will...
Eugene Wong
To keep the game moving, I messaged the last voter, instead of waiting for a full 24 hours.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I actually want to vote for this but I don't think it's justifiable.


??

What an odd statement at this stage of the game.

I felt like being odd.
Eugene Wong
Only Jerival votes G{YES. All others vote no.

M1.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27274042#27274042]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah
M1.2 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!


Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!

Jrival was the only one to upvote mine too.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!

Jrival was the only one to upvote mine too.


Hmm. True. Although you did as well but given it is your mission that is understandable. I actually thought I had the hammer. The hammer is really always at 5 even in 5 players? That seems odd.
Sarah
I guess that doesn't tell me that much and 50% of you are evil.. it feels like flipping a coin here. I want to pick Jerival because he picked me but I could also see him totally wanting to frame me (I would if I were him! ).
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!

Jrival was the only one to upvote mine too.


Hmm. True. Although you did as well but given it is your mission that is understandable. I actually thought I had the hammer. The hammer is really always at 5 even in 5 players? That seems odd.


From my POV Jerival was the only upvote since I don't count.

The hammer in 5p is odd.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!

Jrival was the only one to upvote mine too.


Hmm. True. Although you did as well but given it is your mission that is understandable. I actually thought I had the hammer. The hammer is really always at 5 even in 5 players? That seems odd.

It's often house-ruled to be on the 4th proposal in 5 player to prevent the hammer always having the hammer, but rules-as-written do say it's just the 5th.

I find people don't let it get to hammer that often in 5p so it doesn't really end up mattering.
Eugene Wong
I forgot about the house rule, so I was expecting the 5th proposal.

It's still early enough, that I'm willing to let the 4th be the hammer. What does everybody else want? Ultimately, the hammer is the hammer only because the rebels up vote.

It's your game. You all decide.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Only Jrival votes G{YES. All others vote no. Next!


Hmm. This makes me kind of like that mission!

Jrival was the only one to upvote mine too.


Hmm. True. Although you did as well but given it is your mission that is understandable. I actually thought I had the hammer. The hammer is really always at 5 even in 5 players? That seems odd.

It's often house-ruled to be on the 4th proposal in 5 player to prevent the hammer always having the hammer, but rules-as-written do say it's just the 5th.

I find people don't let it get to hammer that often in 5p so it doesn't really end up mattering.


It's not that big of a deal. For some reason I was thinking I was the hammer since I thought it was the third person. I don't really care if we have it at 3, 4 or 5. I will start caring when I figure out who the dirty spies are though.
Sarah
M1.3 Sarah: Johnorama, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO
Eugene Wong
Hi.

I'll have to get clarification on which John you want. Jerival and Johnorama are both John. We'll need to revote.
Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

Hi.

I'll have to get clarification on which John you want. Jerival and Johnorama are both John. We'll need to revote.


I meant Johnorama. Sorry for the confusion.
Eugene Wong
No sorries necessary, but would you edit the proposal, please?
Eugene Wong
Sarah, and Johnorama, vote yes; all others vote no.

M1.3 Proposal By Sarah url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27281777#27281777]link to announcement[/url:
M1.3 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - G{YES
Kait - no
Johnorama - G{YES


Next proposal, please!
Kaitlyn Smith
M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes
Eugene Wong
I'm going to send out a reminder to the last voter.
Eugene Wong
The mission team members vote YES, and all others vote no.

M1.4 Proposal By Kait url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27293292#27293292]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kait
M1.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - R{no


John, you are next.
John X
Anyone want to try to sway me to/from anything specific before I propose something?
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Anyone want to try to sway me to/from anything specific before I propose something?
Clearly, I hope to be on, but you can read people pretty well, so take the person you think is the most likely res.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Anyone want to try to sway me to/from anything specific before I propose something?

I honestly don't have a read on anyone right now. But, my reads tend to go off of proposals and votes and I haven't seen anything that is really interesting. Sarah's downvote was a little odd but I don't think that is spyish or resish. Just odd.
John X
M1.5: John & Sarah
John X
Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL
Eugene Wong
SUCCEED! SUCCEED!

Mission Results url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27311903#27311903]link to announcement[/url: SUCCESS; SUCCESS

Next!
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL


I was on my phone when I first saw this post and I just saw the colors and thought that you had failed the mission and I cursed your name, I must confess. I was relieved to discover that I cant read.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL


I was on my phone when I first saw this post and I just saw the colors and thought that you had failed the mission and I cursed your name, I must confess. I was relieved to discover that I cant read.

Definitely not the first time that's happened to someone
Rob W
Nice!

M2.1 Rob: Kait, Jerival, Rob

Voting links: YES/NO
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Nice!

M2.1 Rob: Kait, Jerival, Rob

Voting links: YES/NO


John, he thinks we're double-spy? *checks card again*
Sarah
Also, there isn't much discussion around here. I am not sure how Johnorama normally plays but he has at least some good credit with me now. I wanted to take him because I think he will be the hardest person for me to read. If he failed m1 then that would have sucked but it could help me world build from here. If he didn't then awesome too!
Kaitlyn Smith
I'm usually a lot more talkative when Merlin is in the game.

Edit for spelling
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Nice!

M2.1 Rob: Kait, Jerival, Rob

Voting links: YES/NO


John, he thinks we're double-spy? *checks card again*

Maybe I do. Maybe I don't. But a proposal like this one can reveal info. Which I DO need to know.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Nice!

M2.1 Rob: Kait, Jerival, Rob

Voting links: YES/NO


John, he thinks we're double-spy? *checks card again*

Maybe I do. Maybe I don't. But a proposal like this one can reveal info. Which I DO need to know.


I kind of get what you mean but I don't agree.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

I'm usually a lot more talkative when Merlin is in the game.

Edit for spelling

There is not really much to go on just yet. The spies did not break rank to prevent John's hammer. That makes him a tad spyish. But no RES seemed willing to break rank either, so the spies may have just sat back and let rebel-john pick a team.

That's all I know ATM.
John X

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

I'm usually a lot more talkative when Merlin is in the game.

Edit for spelling

There is not really much to go on just yet. The spies did not break rank to prevent John's hammer. That makes him a tad spyish. But no RES seemed willing to break rank either, so the spies may have just sat back and let rebel-john pick a team.

That's all I know ATM.

I feel like you consistently put way too much weight into that, I really don't buy the premise that spies feel threatened enough by an M1 hammer or M2 hammer positioning to do something funny.

Voting earlier to try and look a little weird and rebel-like? Absolutely. Not to try and avoid something though, there's so little reward in it.
Eugene Wong
Rob votes YES.

M2.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27313140#27313140]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kait
M2.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - R{no
Johnorama - R{no


Next!
Eugene Wong
I'll tidy things up on Friday, or Saturday. I'll update the game log, too.

Unfortunately, I've had way too many significant deadlines, this week.
John Agre
M2.1 Jerival: Jerival, Sarah, Johnorama

Voting links: YES/NO



I'm out until late Sunday evening, just an FYI
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.



Next!


Sarah, to get back to your comment about m1 being double-spy...

M1 being clean is also a possibility. With this, Kait and Jerival would be spies. They would not like my M2.1 proposal of double spy.

So this voting result is interesting...

I wasn't sure it would go. I wasn't sure I wanted it to. But I knew it wouldn't if M1 were clean. So I voted for it.
Kaitlyn Smith

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.



Next!


Sarah, to get back to your comment about m1 being double-spy...

M1 being clean is also a possibility. With this, Kait and Jerival would be spies. They would not like my M2.1 proposal of double spy.

So this voting result is interesting...

I wasn't sure it would go. I wasn't sure I wanted it to. But I knew it wouldn't if M1 were clean. So I voted for it.


I will usually approve M2's that I am on. This is an unusual case.

Rob was asking me to believe that M1 was double-spy. I think that's a pretty hard sell. Let's assume that's true. John X brings on spymate Sarah and they float. Sarah is in the #3 spot which means it's not that unlikely that Rob will call his own number with Sarah and John X, and that John A will do the same. This is a veritable minefield for the two spies as they have to negotiate a single fail. Of course, John X could reject until hammer and then not take Sarah. When M2 failed under that circumstance, don't you think that John X would be under great suspicion, and that we might work out what happened?

John X, a 2017 BGG Avalon champion, is not such a duffer that he can't foresee the problems with the plan of taking a second spy with him on M1. So of course I'm not going to approve a mission I believe to be dirty.

Now, I'm not going to begin to pretend that if you (Rob) are res, that you won't think that I could not come up with this analysis as a spy. I'm not a spy, as it turns out, but I don't think there's any way you can know that yet.

John A can draw the same conclusions that I do. Having not played with him, I don't know if he would delve that deeply into the situation, but I have to assume that he's been around the block at this game and that this reasoning isn't that challenging for anybody but a beginner. So yes, John A should be able to reject on basic principles whether he is a res or a spy.

Rob, I know you know all this. Your approve was 100% safe because you probably know that it's inconceivable that I would approve with any role card. Plus, there's no other Robs in this game so nobody else is going to off-approve as a res.

Now, let's talk about what did happen. If John X really did bring spymate Sarah, kudos to him to pulling off two really bold plays in the same year, and this one will probably work too (unless M2.2 is the two Johns and Sarah and one of the spies has to give the show away.)

Oh yes, M2.2 actually is that team. Let's see what happens.

In any event, let's say I'm right about John not picking another spy. John is a spy 50% of the time from my POV. What about Sarah? She's looking pretty good! If John is spy, Sarah is res. If John is res, Sarah is the last res 1/3 of the time. So Sarah is 2/3 res. John is 50-50. What's that say about the other two? Sorry, it puts you each at about 5/12.

Indeed, any res off M1 can do the same calculations and say that I am also only 5/12 res. Given that, I think there's a decent chance that M2 fails because I'm not on. Of course, I can hope for a double spy M2 with an even number of fails, but if John is the spy, this probably isn't going to happen.

So why does Rob throw up garbage as M2.1? He shouldn't necessarily do that as res - it's better for resRob to be on M2 than to not be on. So why toss his mission? He claims that it's to get info. Maybe he's right - he definitely has done this type of thing in the past.

But what if he's a spy and doesn't want himself to go with M1? That would imply that his spymate was aboard M1. It would be too telling for him to send M1+Rob and reject.

Now, if Rob is res, by my earlier calculations, the spyteam is most likely to be the two Johns. However if this is the case, John A apparently has no trouble throwing up a double spy team.

That's all for now - but I suspect that the voting results for M2.2 will be very interesting.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.



Next!


Sarah, to get back to your comment about m1 being double-spy...

M1 being clean is also a possibility. With this, Kait and Jerival would be spies. They would not like my M2.1 proposal of double spy.

So this voting result is interesting...

I wasn't sure it would go. I wasn't sure I wanted it to. But I knew it wouldn't if M1 were clean. So I voted for it.


I will usually approve M2's that I am on. This is an unusual case.

Rob was asking me to believe that M1 was double-spy. I think that's a pretty hard sell. Let's assume that's true. John X brings on spymate Sarah and they float. Sarah is in the #3 spot which means it's not that unlikely that Rob will call his own number with Sarah and John X, and that John A will do the same. This is a veritable minefield for the two spies as they have to negotiate a single fail. Of course, John X could reject until hammer and then not take Sarah. When M2 failed under that circumstance, don't you think that John X would be under great suspicion, and that we might work out what happened?

John X, a 2017 BGG Avalon champion, is not such a duffer that he can't foresee the problems with the plan of taking a second spy with him on M1. So of course I'm not going to approve a mission I believe to be dirty.

Now, I'm not going to begin to pretend that if you (Rob) are res, that you won't think that I could not come up with this analysis as a spy. I'm not a spy, as it turns out, but I don't think there's any way you can know that yet.

John A can draw the same conclusions that I do. Having not played with him, I don't know if he would delve that deeply into the situation, but I have to assume that he's been around the block at this game and that this reasoning isn't that challenging for anybody but a beginner. So yes, John A should be able to reject on basic principles whether he is a res or a spy.

Rob, I know you know all this. Your approve was 100% safe because you probably know that it's inconceivable that I would approve with any role card. Plus, there's no other Robs in this game so nobody else is going to off-approve as a res.

Now, let's talk about what did happen. If John X really did bring spymate Sarah, kudos to him to pulling off two really bold plays in the same year, and this one will probably work too (unless M2.2 is the two Johns and Sarah and one of the spies has to give the show away.)

Oh yes, M2.2 actually is that team. Let's see what happens.

In any event, let's say I'm right about John not picking another spy. John is a spy 50% of the time from my POV. What about Sarah? She's looking pretty good! If John is spy, Sarah is res. If John is res, Sarah is the last res 1/3 of the time. So Sarah is 2/3 res. John is 50-50. What's that say about the other two? Sorry, it puts you each at about 5/12.

Indeed, any res off M1 can do the same calculations and say that I am also only 5/12 res. Given that, I think there's a decent chance that M2 fails because I'm not on. Of course, I can hope for a double spy M2 with an even number of fails, but if John is the spy, this probably isn't going to happen.

So why does Rob throw up garbage as M2.1? He shouldn't necessarily do that as res - it's better for resRob to be on M2 than to not be on. So why toss his mission? He claims that it's to get info. Maybe he's right - he definitely has done this type of thing in the past.

But what if he's a spy and doesn't want himself to go with M1? That would imply that his spymate was aboard M1. It would be too telling for him to send M1+Rob and reject.

Now, if Rob is res, by my earlier calculations, the spyteam is most likely to be the two Johns. However if this is the case, John A apparently has no trouble throwing up a double spy team.

That's all for now - but I suspect that the voting results for M2.2 will be very interesting.

Good work. In my defense, I figured m2.1 would not be approved regardless of the team.
Eugene Wong

Jerival wrote:

M2.1 Jerival: Jerival, Sarah, Johnorama

Voting links: YES/NO



I'm out until late Sunday evening, just an FYI


Just a note: because the proposal number is incorrect, we could make everybody redo this, but I think that everybody knows what is happening. In other words, I'll allow this, unless anybody objects to me allowing it. We could discuss it.
Eugene Wong
All players vote no.

M2.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27328786#27328786]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah; Johnorama
M2.2 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!
John X
Jerival, why the no vote?
John Agre

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival, why the no vote?


looking to see the off mission votes.. passing the mission is secondary since you and sarah have upcoming proposals..

i have terrible cell service so i will not be around much until sunday.. have to stand outside in the cold to type this..
John X

Jerival wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival, why the no vote?


looking to see the off mission votes.. passing the mission is secondary since you and sarah have upcoming proposals..

i have terrible cell service so i will not be around much until sunday.. have to stand outside in the cold to type this..

Oh don't freeze your fingers for little old me.
Eugene Wong
I just sent Sarah a private message to make the next proposal.
Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

I just sent Sarah a private message to make the next proposal.


Sorry, everyone! I have been busy and didn't realize I was up.

Sarah
M2.3 Sarah: Sarah, John, John

Voting links: YES/NO


Both of the Johns!
Eugene Wong
Sarah, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.

M2.3 Proposal By Sarah URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27365685#27365685]link to announcement[/url: Sarah; John; John
M2.3 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - YES
Sarah - YES
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!
Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

Sarah, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!

Boooooooooo
Kaitlyn Smith
M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination

For what it's worth I did think pretty hard about voting for it and it may be what I propose should I get a proposal, but I just wanted to be selfish and ride out this hammer-having thing for awhile.

I really like that explanation though and now I'm sad I didn't go along with it at the time, I can't really replicate the same thing.
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

All players vote no.

M2.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27328786#27328786]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah; Johnorama
M2.2 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!

I didn't even consider m2.3, but now I have to decide. So I am looking back and finding this...

So what on earth is going on with m2.2 vote? I guess john and sarah both have later proposals. But Jerival votes NO as well? Just really weird result there. Anyone want to speak up on this one?
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.

M2.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27313140#27313140]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kait
M2.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - R{no
Johnorama - R{no


Next!

Names are missing from my proposal here and in other places.
John X

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

All players vote no.

M2.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27328786#27328786]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah; Johnorama
M2.2 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!

I didn't even consider m2.3, but now I have to decide. So I am looking back and finding this...

So what on earth is going on with m2.2 vote? I guess john and sarah both have later proposals. But Jerival votes NO as well? Just really weird result there. Anyone want to speak up on this one?

I already asked Jerival and he answered about his vote, what more are you looking for?
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

All players vote no.

M2.2 Proposal By Jerival url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27328786#27328786]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Sarah; Johnorama
M2.2 Vote Record:

Rob - no
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!

I didn't even consider m2.3, but now I have to decide. So I am looking back and finding this...

So what on earth is going on with m2.2 vote? I guess john and sarah both have later proposals. But Jerival votes NO as well? Just really weird result there. Anyone want to speak up on this one?

I already asked Jerival and he answered about his vote, what more are you looking for?

Just extending the offer to comment. M2.3 has transpired and m2.4 proposed, so maybe someone might say something extra. I figured not, but it doesn't hurt to mention.
Eugene Wong

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.

M2.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27313140#27313140]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kait
M2.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - R{no
Johnorama - R{no


Next!

Names are missing from my proposal here and in other places.


Thanks for correcting me on this. I'll correct it later on.
Eugene Wong
Rob, and Kait, vote yes. Others vote no.

M2.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27372617#27372617]link to announcement[/url:
M2.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Next!
Eugene Wong

eugenetswong wrote:

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.

M2.1 Proposal By Rob url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27313140#27313140]link to announcement[/url: Rob; Kait
M2.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - R{no
Sarah - R{no
Kait - R{no
Johnorama - R{no


Next!

Names are missing from my proposal here and in other places.


Thanks for correcting me on this. I'll correct it later on.


I've attempted to correct, and update, the information.

Everybody, please do let me know, if you see more errors.
John X
I appreciate the faith Sarah.

M2.5 Johnorama: John, Sarah, John
John X

Johnorama wrote:

Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL
John X
Forgot to unquote myself but whatever, links are still correct.
Eugene Wong
Succeed succeed fail

M2.5 Proposal By John URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27380146#27380146]link to announcement[/url: John; Sarah; John

Mission Results url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27387183#27387183]link to announcement[/url: SUCCESS; SUCCESS; fail

[On a humorous note, I actually almost blurted out who failed! ]
Sarah
soblue
Sarah
Wondering if they are both spies since john repositioned his name.
Kaitlyn Smith
So John X claims to be a res who thought Rob and I were the spies? shake
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

So John X claims to be a res who thought Rob and I were the spies? shake
Yes?

That's exactly what I was going with. Every team but the perfect one is going to have at least one rebel on the sidelines shaking their head, who does this slime help?
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Wondering if they are both spies since john repositioned his name.

I thought it was pretty clear that were I a spy then I'd be failing it anyway and didn't think it was worth it to try.

So what I tried to do instead was keep it ambiguous between you and Jerival. If spies are using proposal order to coordinate that was the only orientation that could cause the question "does Sarah come before Jerival". I'm not sure it would have worked and I don't really think it was double spy anyway but it was an easy thing to try so I figured why not.
John X

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

So John X claims to be a res who thought Rob and I were the spies? shake
Yes?

That's exactly what I was going with. Every team but the perfect one is going to have at least one rebel on the sidelines shaking their head, who does this slime help?

Where was "so Sarah and Jerival claim to be res who think Rob and I are the spies? shake" after M2.3?
Rob W
Right now, Sarah is top of my spy-list for her 3 on-mission NO votes. (A spy does NOT have to get on missions to win.)

Spy-Sarah votes NO because:
A)she wants to seem cleaner
B)her spy-partner is on mission
C)she wouldn't like the proposal order for the next mission, including hammer placement
D)to fail with that team would lower her chance of winning.

M1.2: Jerival is also spy OR Jerival is clean and she wants hammer to stay on John. NOTE: She had next proposal.
M2.2: similar story.
M2.4: either she is double spy with Kait OR she does not want the m3 (and subsequent) hammers to move from John X to Kait.

I have a neutral read on Jerival. I have a positive read on Kait and a negative read on John X due to the logic above with Sarah. It is looking very likely that m2 was double spy.
Rob W
M3.1 Rob: Kait, Rob

Voting links: YES/NO
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

So John X claims to be a res who thought Rob and I were the spies? shake
Yes?

That's exactly what I was going with. Every team but the perfect one is going to have at least one rebel on the sidelines shaking their head, who does this slime help?

Actually this is a RESish proposal by John, IMO. From his POV, I would have proposed the same. He could be a spy that thought the same, but I think m2.5 was the likliest clean team from res-john X.
Eugene Wong
Rob, and Kait, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Right now, Sarah is top of my spy-list for her 3 on-mission NO votes. (A spy does NOT have to get on missions to win.)

Spy-Sarah votes NO because:
A)she wants to seem cleaner
B)her spy-partner is on mission
C)she wouldn't like the proposal order for the next mission, including hammer placement
D)to fail with that team would lower her chance of winning.

M1.2: Jerival is also spy OR Jerival is clean and she wants hammer to stay on John. NOTE: She had next proposal.
M2.2: similar story.
M2.4: either she is double spy with Kait OR she does not want the m3 (and subsequent) hammers to move from John X to Kait.

I have a neutral read on Jerival. I have a positive read on Kait and a negative read on John X due to the logic above with Sarah. It is looking very likely that m2 was double spy.


Can you explain your read of me? I proposed that because a) I liked that no one was voting it up previously and b) I thought if I proposed it in the way I did that if they are both spies they couldn't easily coordinate there so the odds of me getting a double fail would increase.

I just don't understand your reads at all. If there is one thing you should know about me and you can look at all games I have played in this forum (and most games I play irl for that matter), if I am a spy, especially in a 5 player game, and I get on m1-- I fail it. It's such a huge advantage to put yourself in a dichotomy at that point. Having the fail that early and making rebels get it together asap and not know who is bad in the dichotomy is great. AND if there was one person of the four of you who I would want to set up for failing and paranoia-- it is Johnorama. I have history playing with him and I think I could have painted him as the spy among us. But alas, I am actually not a spy-- and I thought if he was he might have failed m1 too-- so I wanted to try to get a read on him. My gut says Jerival is evil and I'm not trying to figure out if you or Kait is his partner.
Sarah
I'd lean toward Rob/Jerival team based on Rob's shading of me and what appears to be buddying up to Johnorama.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Right now, Sarah is top of my spy-list for her 3 on-mission NO votes. (A spy does NOT have to get on missions to win.)

Spy-Sarah votes NO because:
A)she wants to seem cleaner
B)her spy-partner is on mission
C)she wouldn't like the proposal order for the next mission, including hammer placement
D)to fail with that team would lower her chance of winning.

M1.2: Jerival is also spy OR Jerival is clean and she wants hammer to stay on John. NOTE: She had next proposal.
M2.2: similar story.
M2.4: either she is double spy with Kait OR she does not want the m3 (and subsequent) hammers to move from John X to Kait.

I have a neutral read on Jerival. I have a positive read on Kait and a negative read on John X due to the logic above with Sarah. It is looking very likely that m2 was double spy.


Can you explain your read of me? I proposed that because a) I liked that no one was voting it up previously and b) I thought if I proposed it in the way I did that if they are both spies they couldn't easily coordinate there so the odds of me getting a double fail would increase.

I just don't understand your reads at all. If there is one thing you should know about me and you can look at all games I have played in this forum (and most games I play irl for that matter), if I am a spy, especially in a 5 player game, and I get on m1-- I fail it. It's such a huge advantage to put yourself in a dichotomy at that point. Having the fail that early and making rebels get it together asap and not know who is bad in the dichotomy is great. AND if there was one person of the four of you who I would want to set up for failing and paranoia-- it is Johnorama. I have history playing with him and I think I could have painted him as the spy among us. But alas, I am actually not a spy-- and I thought if he was he might have failed m1 too-- so I wanted to try to get a read on him. My gut says Jerival is evil and I'm not trying to figure out if you or Kait is his partner.

I don't accept evil-splaining as a valid source of res proof.

I am looking specifically at your abnormal amount of the times you have voted NO while on the mission. A spy does not need to go on a mission to win. A rebel does. This is a tried and true method of finding spies that I always look at.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

I'd lean toward Rob/Jerival team based on Rob's shading of me and what appears to be buddying up to Johnorama.

John X is my #2 spy right now as stated above. I was merely and honestly pointing out that I, as a res in the #5 spot, with the votes and proposals as such, would have also made m2.5. Spy-John could easily have done so as well. That is the summary of my post.

And I know Kait sees what I see.

How about this, Kait, leave me off and I upvote your m3.3. Sarah blatantly kept the hammer from you on John and that's how I see it.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Right now, Sarah is top of my spy-list for her 3 on-mission NO votes. (A spy does NOT have to get on missions to win.)

Spy-Sarah votes NO because:
A)she wants to seem cleaner
B)her spy-partner is on mission
C)she wouldn't like the proposal order for the next mission, including hammer placement
D)to fail with that team would lower her chance of winning.

M1.2: Jerival is also spy OR Jerival is clean and she wants hammer to stay on John. NOTE: She had next proposal.
M2.2: similar story.
M2.4: either she is double spy with Kait OR she does not want the m3 (and subsequent) hammers to move from John X to Kait.

I have a neutral read on Jerival. I have a positive read on Kait and a negative read on John X due to the logic above with Sarah. It is looking very likely that m2 was double spy.


Can you explain your read of me? I proposed that because a) I liked that no one was voting it up previously and b) I thought if I proposed it in the way I did that if they are both spies they couldn't easily coordinate there so the odds of me getting a double fail would increase.

I just don't understand your reads at all. If there is one thing you should know about me and you can look at all games I have played in this forum (and most games I play irl for that matter), if I am a spy, especially in a 5 player game, and I get on m1-- I fail it. It's such a huge advantage to put yourself in a dichotomy at that point. Having the fail that early and making rebels get it together asap and not know who is bad in the dichotomy is great. AND if there was one person of the four of you who I would want to set up for failing and paranoia-- it is Johnorama. I have history playing with him and I think I could have painted him as the spy among us. But alas, I am actually not a spy-- and I thought if he was he might have failed m1 too-- so I wanted to try to get a read on him. My gut says Jerival is evil and I'm not trying to figure out if you or Kait is his partner.

I don't accept evil-splaining as a valid source of res proof.

I am looking specifically at your abnormal amount of the times you have voted NO while on the mission. A spy does not need to go on a mission to win. A rebel does. This is a tried and true method of finding spies that I always look at.


If you want to evaluate people, knowing their general playstyle is helpful. I'm also much more likely to vote things down as good because I don't really trust any of you shady people.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I'd lean toward Rob/Jerival team based on Rob's shading of me and what appears to be buddying up to Johnorama.

John X is my #2 spy right now as stated above. I was merely and honestly pointing out that I, as a res in the #5 spot, with the votes and proposals as such, would have also made m2.5. Spy-John could easily have done so as well. That is the summary of my post.

And I know Kait sees what I see.

How about this, Kait, leave me off and I upvote your m3.3. Sarah blatantly kept the hammer from you on John and that's how I see it.


Blatantly kept the hammer? You give me way too much credit given I'm not paying attention to that at all. You think m1 was a spy-spy mission? I can at least get behind that being a logical argument because I could see that being something I would do-- albeit I normally do spy-spy on m1 and then fail and create a fake dichotomy but until you play with me more you wouldn't know that.
Sarah
Also, I think taking into account how people normally play or have played in the past is a huge benefit in these types of games because I think looking at voting alone isn't very helpful. We're not in person so you cant read body language so I think the next best thing is as you play with people understanding their general playstyles. You can argue wifom and do things you wouldn't 'normally' do but once you start doing that it becomes part of your arsenal and people know that. Like the fact that anyone that knows me knows I fail m1 as spy 95% of the time can harm me in two ways

1) the minute I would try to change it and not do it, like if I did that this game for example-- it ruins me having any cred when I say that-- was it worth ruining that for cred in one game? no

2) spies knowing this can easily set me up by knowing this which is a risk I put myself in and is why I am always hesitant to go on m1 as good
John Agre
M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO
Sarah

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Do you think Johnorama is pocketing me? I would have to believe that to think you're good..
John Agre
Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.
Sarah

Jerival wrote:

Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.


I will agree that I feel more sure on Rob being a spy-- which 'clears' Kait for me then. I'm not as set on you vs. John. I feel like he would have set me up m1 but I also know he is slick so could be wrong. I have to think more on this.
John Agre

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Do you think Johnorama is pocketing me? I would have to believe that to think you're good..


He specifically said he never passes mission one as a spy. I have to believe that was a fabrication or specific only to 7 player games.. I don't think your voting is indicative of how I would play a spy, so by process of elimination it has to be him.

So.. yes he is trying to pocket you.. hopefully not successfully or the resistance is doomed!

Not sure what else to tell you..
Sarah

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Do you think Johnorama is pocketing me? I would have to believe that to think you're good..


He specifically said he never passes mission one as a spy. I have to believe that was a fabrication or specific only to 7 player games.. I don't think your voting is indicative of how I would play a spy, so by process of elimination it has to be him.

So.. yes he is trying to pocket you.. hopefully not successfully or the resistance is doomed!

Not sure what else to tell you..


Really? I don't remember him saying that-- I know I said that-- although it's more like 98% of the time. I'm going to go back and look now. Hmm
John Agre

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Do you think Johnorama is pocketing me? I would have to believe that to think you're good..


He specifically said he never passes mission one as a spy. I have to believe that was a fabrication or specific only to 7 player games.. I don't think your voting is indicative of how I would play a spy, so by process of elimination it has to be him.

So.. yes he is trying to pocket you.. hopefully not successfully or the resistance is doomed!

Not sure what else to tell you..


Really? I don't remember him saying that-- I know I said that-- although it's more like 98% of the time. I'm going to go back and look now. Hmm


sorry, that was in my last game with him.. I'm going off of his own admission of playstyle..
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes


OHHH. This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory but hear me out on this. I actually am super pinged that she typed out her entire username on the first part and then just wrote her name for people on mission. I feel like it's her trying to subliminally associate her name with good.. I know that may seem nuts. She even has that she edited the post-- I wonder if she had her name then decided to put in the "res".. hmm
Sarah

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Do you think Johnorama is pocketing me? I would have to believe that to think you're good..


He specifically said he never passes mission one as a spy. I have to believe that was a fabrication or specific only to 7 player games.. I don't think your voting is indicative of how I would play a spy, so by process of elimination it has to be him.

So.. yes he is trying to pocket you.. hopefully not successfully or the resistance is doomed!

Not sure what else to tell you..


Really? I don't remember him saying that-- I know I said that-- although it's more like 98% of the time. I'm going to go back and look now. Hmm


sorry, that was in my last game with him.. I'm going off of his own admission of playstyle..


That's my plastyle as well though. That's why I brought him because I thought if anyone were to fail m1 on me it would be him and I wanted a read of him. I thought if he was a spy he would set me up there. It would suck to have had the fail but I wanted to be able to read him better since he's one of the hardest people for me to read.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes YES.



Next!


Sarah, to get back to your comment about m1 being double-spy...

M1 being clean is also a possibility. With this, Kait and Jerival would be spies. They would not like my M2.1 proposal of double spy.

So this voting result is interesting...

I wasn't sure it would go. I wasn't sure I wanted it to. But I knew it wouldn't if M1 were clean. So I voted for it.


Hmmmm
Sarah
Rob- could you see a Jerival/Kait world here? I feel like you were shading but maybe you're just wrong and you are posting which is generally more good than evil in that you're hunting. So, there are worlds where I can see you as a rebel. I see Kait as more likely to be evil with Jerival than with John though. And I think you're more likely a spy with John if you are one.
Sarah
Kait hasn't proposed Jerival on her missions and voted no on the mission she was proposed to go on with Jerival..
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes


OHHH. This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory but hear me out on this. I actually am super pinged that she typed out her entire username on the first part and then just wrote her name for people on mission. I feel like it's her trying to subliminally associate her name with good.. I know that may seem nuts. She even has that she edited the post-- I wonder if she had her name then decided to put in the "res".. hmm
laugh Is it too late to change my vote?
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes


OHHH. This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory but hear me out on this. I actually am super pinged that she typed out her entire username on the first part and then just wrote her name for people on mission. I feel like it's her trying to subliminally associate her name with good.. I know that may seem nuts. She even has that she edited the post-- I wonder if she had her name then decided to put in the "res".. hmm
laugh Is it too late to change my vote?


If you ever come over and play werewolf you will see that I generally pick up on the weirdest stuff. It's often nothing but sometimes I'm right!!
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's often nothing but sometimes I'm right!!
Not this time. Of course, there's a 50% chance you already know that.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's often nothing but sometimes I'm right!!
Not this time. Of course, there's a 50% chance you already know that.


What are your current reads?
Kaitlyn Smith

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

I wanted to see if any spies jumped offside. Not likely to happen. Let's do it again.

M3.2 proposed by Kaitlyn: ltrtgirl, MD1616, itsbrianyay, Kaitlyn_Res

We know what M4 will be and we'll make sure the M5 hammer is among the known rebels.

EDIT to put voting links in:

VOTE! Voting links: YES/NO


This was the Resistance Tournament Game #2. This being a tournament that I was particularly incompetent, I hate to go there, but this was one of my rare triumphs in this year's event (no thanks to me.)

You will notice one Kaitlyn and one Kaitlyn_Res. This proposal got four votes, and turned out to be our third success. This, of course, means that I was in fact resistance, even though I only used the _Res once (should I have used it twice?)
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's often nothing but sometimes I'm right!!
Not this time. Of course, there's a 50% chance you already know that.


What are your current reads?
I am still trying to figure some things out. I think that a lot of things will fall into place after M3. All of you are good enough to play as you have as a spy, and none of you have outed yourselves as a spy.

Your reject of M2.4, although making me sad soblue, makes you look more res. For in the scenario where John X is res and you are spy, you might fear a double spy M2.5, and I don't think that John X gave BBany indication of who he was picking. Of course, if I picked your spymate in M2.4, that would explain your reject but it wouldn't explain Rob's accept. So right now, you look better than any of the rest.

By the way, I disagree that NO votes are generally spyish. In a really good game, they are non-defining. In a game where mistakes are likely to be made, an on-mission NO vote is more ilkely to be rebellish, because drawing out the game gives your spymate more time to screw up and expose himself - which is another way of saying that more missions and more conversation helps the rebels.

The same could be said for John X's NO votes except that he is keeping the hammer, an awesome position regardless of alignment whereas approving an earlier mission could either pass the hammer to a res (if he's a spy) or out his spymate to anyone thinking about hammers.

Speaking of hammers, Rob's proposal to me (not a mission proposal, sorry for the confusion!) was very tempting. I would gain the hammer and pick my teammate. It has the added advantage of knowing that if he went back on his offer, the spy team would likely be Rob/John X.

However, I care more about passing missions that the hammer. I see before me the likeliest res pairing, I'm going to vote for it regardless of hammer considerations. If it passes, it's likely that M4 will go with our best res read regardless of who hammers. If M3 fails, I'll know you're a spy but will have to convince the others that I guessed wrong rather than failing M3.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes


OHHH. This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory but hear me out on this. I actually am super pinged that she typed out her entire username on the first part and then just wrote her name for people on mission. I feel like it's her trying to subliminally associate her name with good.. I know that may seem nuts. She even has that she edited the post-- I wonder if she had her name then decided to put in the "res".. hmm

Kait always does that. It looked normal to me.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's often nothing but sometimes I'm right!!
Not this time. Of course, there's a 50% chance you already know that.


What are your current reads?
I am still trying to figure some things out. I think that a lot of things will fall into place after M3. All of you are good enough to play as you have as a spy, and none of you have outed yourselves as a spy.

Your reject of M2.4, although making me sad soblue, makes you look more res. For in the scenario where John X is res and you are spy, you might fear a double spy M2.5, and I don't think that John X gave BBany indication of who he was picking. Of course, if I picked your spymate in M2.4, that would explain your reject but it wouldn't explain Rob's accept. So right now, you look better than any of the rest.

By the way, I disagree that NO votes are generally spyish. In a really good game, they are non-defining. In a game where mistakes are likely to be made, an on-mission NO vote is more ilkely to be rebellish, because drawing out the game gives your spymate more time to screw up and expose himself - which is another way of saying that more missions and more conversation helps the rebels.

The same could be said for John X's NO votes except that he is keeping the hammer, an awesome position regardless of alignment whereas approving an earlier mission could either pass the hammer to a res (if he's a spy) or out his spymate to anyone thinking about hammers.

Speaking of hammers, Rob's proposal to me (not a mission proposal, sorry for the confusion!) was very tempting. I would gain the hammer and pick my teammate. It has the added advantage of knowing that if he went back on his offer, the spy team would likely be Rob/John X.

However, I care more about passing missions that the hammer. I see before me the likeliest res pairing, I'm going to vote for it regardless of hammer considerations. If it passes, it's likely that M4 will go with our best res read regardless of who hammers. If M3 fails, I'll know you're a spy but will have to convince the others that I guessed wrong rather than failing M3.

Actually, John X did say what his preferred team for m2 was. He said it right before the M2.4 proposal. And after that proposal had failed, it looked very obvious that you and I would be left off based on the voting. I could go find the post but I have to bathe a kid now.

It is also worth noting that the team that he sent was exactly what he suggested he would send, that Sarah voted against m2.4, and that the mission failed with exactly one fail. I can't help it but view that suspiciously and therefore Sarah and John X are absolutely at the top of my list.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination

For what it's worth I did think pretty hard about voting for it and it may be what I propose should I get a proposal, but I just wanted to be selfish and ride out this hammer-having thing for awhile.

I really like that explanation though and now I'm sad I didn't go along with it at the time, I can't really replicate the same thing.

This is what I was thinking of. The quoting is kind of weird, but I think John X is talking about voting against m2.3. After he drops this hint that he would consider sending m2.3, which is exactly what he ended up doing, Sara has the odd vote on m2.4.

After dropping the hint, Kate and I both vote Yes on m2.4, suggesting to me that Kate preferred m2.4 to m2.5. And we all know that m2.5 was dirty. Yet again, this is why Kate is the top of my Rebel list right now.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination

For what it's worth I did think pretty hard about voting for it and it may be what I propose should I get a proposal, but I just wanted to be selfish and ride out this hammer-having thing for awhile.

I really like that explanation though and now I'm sad I didn't go along with it at the time, I can't really replicate the same thing.

This is what I was thinking of. The quoting is kind of weird, but I think John X is talking about voting against m2.3. After he drops this hint that he would consider sending m2.3, which is exactly what he ended up doing, Sara has the odd vote on m2.4.

After dropping the hint, Kate and I both vote Yes on m2.4, suggesting to me that Kate preferred m2.4 to m2.5. And we all know that m2.5 was dirty. Yet again, this is why Kate is the top of my Rebel list right now.


You could be right only if it is john/john since you're wrong on me. Assume you know im a rebel. Is Kait the last rebel?
John X

Jerival wrote:

Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.

Emphasis mine, does that not look weird to everyone else? Mission with A and B passes, add C to it and it fails. Now C says they're smelling like roses? That's completely the opposite reaction from what I'd expect.

I'd expect a player to be more defensive after that, not less.

Between what looks like a pretty legitimate argument between Sarah and Rob, this from Jerival and Kait's immediate reaction I feel like it's pretty clear who is what.
John X

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M1.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO

Edit: cosmetic changes


OHHH. This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory but hear me out on this. I actually am super pinged that she typed out her entire username on the first part and then just wrote her name for people on mission. I feel like it's her trying to subliminally associate her name with good.. I know that may seem nuts. She even has that she edited the post-- I wonder if she had her name then decided to put in the "res".. hmm

Kait always does that. It looked normal to me.

This strikes me too. Sarah goes on what feels like a bit of a goose chase, I expect her to be told it's a bit of a goose chase. Rob does so, Kait goes through the effort of digging up a counterexample. Felt weird to me from Kait.
John X
I'm curious Rob, let's assume I'm a rebel, what do you think I'd do differently?

I can't really tell if you think I'm a spy because of something I've done/am doing or just because it fits nicely with your reads on others.
Sarah
If jerival is a spy doed he send his partner on a two player mission he proposes?
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

If jerival is a spy doed he send his partner on a two player mission he proposes?

I certainly don't know well enough to say the answer is definitively no. So.. maybe?

There's a valid enough argument that he can say he just picked wrong should it fail that I don't really see the risk, and if it passes then he makes both himself and Kait look good. There's a decent chance we don't sort out it's both of them before M5 is sent.
John X

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival wrote:

Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.

Emphasis mine, does that not look weird to everyone else? Mission with A and B passes, add C to it and it fails. Now C says they're smelling like roses? That's completely the opposite reaction from what I'd expect.

I'd expect a player to be more defensive after that, not less.

Between what looks like a pretty legitimate argument between Sarah and Rob, this from Jerival and Kait's immediate reaction I feel like it's pretty clear who is what.

I just realized what I bolded is likely sarcasm.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I'm curious Rob, let's assume I'm a rebel, what do you think I'd do differently?

I can't really tell if you think I'm a spy because of something I've done/am doing or just because it fits nicely with your reads on others.

It fits nicely. Your proposals, votes, and postings hint nothing of a spy. But, with all-time hammer, spy-JohnX doesn't have to try hard to be spy.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination

For what it's worth I did think pretty hard about voting for it and it may be what I propose should I get a proposal, but I just wanted to be selfish and ride out this hammer-having thing for awhile.

I really like that explanation though and now I'm sad I didn't go along with it at the time, I can't really replicate the same thing.

This is what I was thinking of. The quoting is kind of weird, but I think John X is talking about voting against m2.3. After he drops this hint that he would consider sending m2.3, which is exactly what he ended up doing, Sara has the odd vote on m2.4.

After dropping the hint, Kate and I both vote Yes on m2.4, suggesting to me that Kate preferred m2.4 to m2.5. And we all know that m2.5 was dirty. Yet again, this is why Kate is the top of my Rebel list right now.


You could be right only if it is john/john since you're wrong on me. Assume you know im a rebel. Is Kait the last rebel?

If you are a rebel, then I am really lost. I would tend to think JohnX is a spy since the hammer has not been moved. But he just made an interesting case for Kait/Jerival. If I HAD to pick a world, I would think JohnX is spy. But, his partner between kait/jerival is tough to call. That player also doesn't have to make a move and would avoid connections to JohnX.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I'm curious Rob, let's assume I'm a rebel, what do you think I'd do differently?

I can't really tell if you think I'm a spy because of something I've done/am doing or just because it fits nicely with your reads on others.

It fits nicely. Your proposals, votes, and postings hint nothing of a spy. But, with all-time hammer, spy-JohnX doesn't have to try hard to be spy.

Ok fair enough. I don't really think spies should ever try hard to be spies and it's just better to be a rebel who happens to fail missions, but your point is taken.

Just so we're both aware though, I'm pretty clearly not going to get a chance to propose M3 so "all-time hammer" is a bit of a stretch.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M2.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Rob, Sarah, Kaitlyn

Voting links: YES/NO



You think both johns are spies? I was trying to prevent coordination

For what it's worth I did think pretty hard about voting for it and it may be what I propose should I get a proposal, but I just wanted to be selfish and ride out this hammer-having thing for awhile.

I really like that explanation though and now I'm sad I didn't go along with it at the time, I can't really replicate the same thing.

This is what I was thinking of. The quoting is kind of weird, but I think John X is talking about voting against m2.3. After he drops this hint that he would consider sending m2.3, which is exactly what he ended up doing, Sara has the odd vote on m2.4.

After dropping the hint, Kate and I both vote Yes on m2.4, suggesting to me that Kate preferred m2.4 to m2.5. And we all know that m2.5 was dirty. Yet again, this is why Kate is the top of my Rebel list right now.


You could be right only if it is john/john since you're wrong on me. Assume you know im a rebel. Is Kait the last rebel?

If you are a rebel, then I am really lost. I would tend to think JohnX is a spy since the hammer has not been moved. But he just made an interesting case for Kait/Jerival. If I HAD to pick a world, I would think JohnX is spy. But, his partner between kait/jerival is tough to call. That player also doesn't have to make a move and would avoid connections to JohnX.


I am actually feeling better about you right now. Maybe because you appear to be solvey and Kait just came off as defensive. I really am a rebel, so if you are I hope we can find one another and figure out if we have john/john or one of the johns/kait.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival wrote:

Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.

Emphasis mine, does that not look weird to everyone else? Mission with A and B passes, add C to it and it fails. Now C says they're smelling like roses? That's completely the opposite reaction from what I'd expect.

I'd expect a player to be more defensive after that, not less.

Between what looks like a pretty legitimate argument between Sarah and Rob, this from Jerival and Kait's immediate reaction I feel like it's pretty clear who is what.

I just realized what I bolded is likely sarcasm.

I read it the same as you. But, I think you are correct now. In general, I was very confused by the post. I thought he did bring himself? Maybe he didn't... I should go check...

I am technically sliming him by not doing it. So I chuckled when he realized it. I doubt anyone else saw it that way, but it makes sense to me that johnx/rob are spies in his world.
Rob W

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO

Ok, wow. He did leave himself off. I break this rule all the time jerival. Now I see what Sarah meant when she asked if his partner is on it or if he is wifoming.

I missed the proposal earlier because I saw Sarah's name at the end and assumed Jerival and Sarah was the team.

So why is Sarah the only one talking about this?!?
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I'm curious Rob, let's assume I'm a rebel, what do you think I'd do differently?

I can't really tell if you think I'm a spy because of something I've done/am doing or just because it fits nicely with your reads on others.

It fits nicely. Your proposals, votes, and postings hint nothing of a spy. But, with all-time hammer, spy-JohnX doesn't have to try hard to be spy.

Ok fair enough. I don't really think spies should ever try hard to be spies and it's just better to be a rebel who happens to fail missions, but your point is taken.

Just so we're both aware though, I'm pretty clearly not going to get a chance to propose M3 so "all-time hammer" is a bit of a stretch.

Haha. Ya. I only meant it in the sense that it is, until it isn't.
John X

rwright wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO

Ok, wow. He did leave himself off. I break this rule all the time jerival. Now I see what Sarah meant when she asked if his partner is on it or if he is wifoming.

I missed the proposal earlier because I saw Sarah's name at the end and assumed Jerival and Sarah was the team.

So why is Sarah the only one talking about this?!?

Maybe I've played with you too much but it didn't strike me as that weird.

It's actually the main reason I realized he was being sarcastic earlier, as thinking he's viewed poorly makes leaving himself off make more sense than if he thought he was viewed highly.

Whether he's just selling he's getting dumped on or he actually feels it I can't say, but it's at least pretty consistent.
Sarah
Rob- what do you make of the John/John thing. I proposed it with both of them to mix them up if they are spies together. On m2.3 when I proposed it:

SarahBoBara wrote:

M2.3 Sarah: Sarah, John, John

Voting links: YES/NO


Both of the Johns!


Jerival AND I voted yes. Johnorama voted no..

Yet Johnorama decided to propose the same team for m2.5. He doesn't do it the way I did and puts me in the middle-- which implies his name is first so it could be signaling to Jerival if they are evil together

Johnorama wrote:

I appreciate the faith Sarah.

M2.5 Johnorama: John, Sarah, John


Why change the wording? OR he is trying to frame Jerival here by implying they are together?
Sarah
*wonders if Eugene made you all spies*
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Rob- what do you make of the John/John thing. I proposed it with both of them to mix them up if they are spies together. On m2.3 when I proposed it:

SarahBoBara wrote:

M2.3 Sarah: Sarah, John, John

Voting links: YES/NO


Both of the Johns!


Jerival AND I voted yes. Johnorama voted no..

Yet Johnorama decided to propose the same team for m2.5. He doesn't do it the way I did and puts me in the middle-- which implies his name is first so it could be signaling to Jerival if they are evil together

Johnorama wrote:

I appreciate the faith Sarah.

M2.5 Johnorama: John, Sarah, John


Why change the wording? OR he is trying to frame Jerival here by implying they are together?

I know you asked Rob but do you really think if I did "Sarah, John, John" it wouldn't have been clear I'd be the one to fail anyway?

The opportunity to vote on M2.3 had passed and I didn't realize the mis-coordination potential at the time.

If I'm wrong about my assumption everyone knew it'd be "my fail" then my bad I guess, but I thought the only possible place it could happen at that point was between Sarah and Jerival and that was the only way I could make it at all ambiguous between you two. Would it have worked even if it was possible? No probably not, but I didn't have anything more useful to try.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Rob- what do you make of the John/John thing. I proposed it with both of them to mix them up if they are spies together. On m2.3 when I proposed it:

SarahBoBara wrote:

M2.3 Sarah: Sarah, John, John

Voting links: YES/NO


Both of the Johns!


Jerival AND I voted yes. Johnorama voted no..

Yet Johnorama decided to propose the same team for m2.5. He doesn't do it the way I did and puts me in the middle-- which implies his name is first so it could be signaling to Jerival if they are evil together

Johnorama wrote:

I appreciate the faith Sarah.

M2.5 Johnorama: John, Sarah, John


Why change the wording? OR he is trying to frame Jerival here by implying they are together?

I know you asked Rob but do you really think if I did "Sarah, John, John" it wouldn't have been clear I'd be the one to fail anyway?

The opportunity to vote on M2.3 had passed and I didn't realize the mis-coordination potential at the time.

If I'm wrong about my assumption everyone knew it'd be "my fail" then my bad I guess, but I thought the only possible place it could happen at that point was between Sarah and Jerival and that was the only way I could make it at all ambiguous between you two. Would it have worked even if it was possible? No probably not, but I didn't have anything more useful to try.


If I am a spy, do you think I pass m1?
Sarah
I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..
Sarah
I'd like a Johno/Me mission for m3 and would consider a Johno/Rob or MAYBE a Johno/Kait if someone can explain how Kait is more rebel than Rob.
Sarah
Another note to this theory.. Jerival and Kait NEVER propose a mission with them both on it..
John Agre

SarahBoBara wrote:

I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..


#fakenews

I clarified my statement on johnx spy claim, why is this still an issue for you?
John X

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..


#fakenews

I clarified my statement on johnx spy claim, why is this still an issue for you?

I agree there, seems like a weird thing to pick on at this point.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..


#fakenews

I clarified my statement on johnx spy claim, why is this still an issue for you?

I agree there, seems like a weird thing to pick on at this point.


It proves he wasn't following as closely as i eould expect a rebel to be.
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

Another note to this theory.. Jerival and Kait NEVER propose a mission with them both on it..


Time sequence:

1. Sarah asks me who my best reads are.

2. I say she is my best read. Give reasons.

3. I approve Sarah/Kait.

4. I get accused for not choosing to do differently.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Another note to this theory.. Jerival and Kait NEVER propose a mission with them both on it..


Time sequence:

1. Sarah asks me who my best reads are.

2. I say she is my best read. Give reasons.

3. I approve Sarah/Kait.

4. I get accused for not choosing to do differently.


Sorry. I am fickle.. . I sit and think of the game and then go "OH BUT WAIT.. WHAT ABOUT...?" blush
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..


#fakenews

I clarified my statement on johnx spy claim, why is this still an issue for you?

I agree there, seems like a weird thing to pick on at this point.


It proves he wasn't following as closely as i eould expect a rebel to be.

Actually it is the opposite. You didnt read HIS post.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Jerival wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I think Jerival is evil now and I am back to good-John. I think that Jerival knew he had to throw shade at Johno or I and decided to throw it at Johno. He was saying how Johno said that he always fails m1 as a spy and how saying that was evil. BUT Johno hadn't said that, I said that. He didn't really change his views though. So, it feels like he is kind of half reading and thinking of who to shade as opposed to being solvey. Does that make sense? My paranoia of Johnorama will always exist but the more I think about it the more I trust him over Jerival at this point. I'm not sure if Jerival is trying to send me on a mission with his buddy here or if his buddy is Rob. I lean toward it being Jerival/Kait right now..


#fakenews

I clarified my statement on johnx spy claim, why is this still an issue for you?

I agree there, seems like a weird thing to pick on at this point.


It proves he wasn't following as closely as i eould expect a rebel to be.

Actually it is the opposite. You didnt read HIS post.


What? He had said John had said he failed m1 all the time and that pinged him but John didn't say that.. I know he said he must have been thinking about a prior game but it still feels fishy.
Eugene Wong

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Kate, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Sarah
I'm debating here but I think I'm going to go with me/Johnorama or me/rob. If anyone has thoughts.. feel free to weigh in..
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

I'm debating here but I think I'm going to go with me/Johnorama or me/rob. If anyone has thoughts.. feel free to weigh in..
This presents an interesting dilemma for me. Clearly I can let this one go and pick M3.4 which Rob said he would vote up. However, Sarah apparently doesn't want to go on a mission with me (3.2 no and now this) which means I have to choose someone else or let John X hammer a third time.

Unfortunately, I think there are tons of things to read in these posts and I should be able to get a good idea of the possible teams but work has caused me to greatly limit the amount of time I can put into figuring it out. I hope to get some free time this weekend to sort it all out but there's no guarantee.
Kaitlyn Smith
And that someone else would have to be John A since John X would just pass and keep his hammer. While it's possible the team is Rob, John A, and me, and Rob is even advocating for that team, it's not my top choice right now. However, I can see that Sarah is leaving me little choice but to hope that's the team (or that we can guess well for M4.)
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I'm debating here but I think I'm going to go with me/Johnorama or me/rob. If anyone has thoughts.. feel free to weigh in..
This presents an interesting dilemma for me. Clearly I can let this one go and pick M3.4 which Rob said he would vote up. However, Sarah apparently doesn't want to go on a mission with me (3.2 no and now this) which means I have to choose someone else or let John X hammer a third time.

Unfortunately, I think there are tons of things to read in these posts and I should be able to get a good idea of the possible teams but work has caused me to greatly limit the amount of time I can put into figuring it out. I hope to get some free time this weekend to sort it all out but there's no guarantee.

If you are a rebel then I think Rob is probably a spy-- I'm just having a harder time seeing that world. If you're a rebel then I want to get on the same page-- just help me see that world. If you are a rebel and you knew I was.. then who are the two spies?
John X
Me and you passed M1 Sarah
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

Me and you passed M1 Sarah


The funny thing is I actually have a tab with a typed proposal of you and I. I'm still debating if I want to hit submit. You're a tricky man, johnorama. I WANT you to be a rebel but I'm paranoid and don't want to have to battle you if you set me up.
Sarah
I will post a mission before I go to bed tonight.
Kaitlyn Smith
Alignment based on missions:
M1.1: Rob picks Rob and Jer and they approve. No alignment.
M1.2 Jer picks Jer and Sarah. Only Jer approves. Slight minus for Sarah who picked JohnX on her own proposal ??? she???s pretty sure she???s not getting hammer so why should she not approve? If it goes and fails she gets gobs of information. Instead she seems hellbent on JohnX hammering. I don???t play like Sarah but it???s hard to see this as a res.
M1.3 Sarah picks Sarah and JohnX and they approve. As I pointed out, this makes Sarah???s M1.2 play look worse. JohnX approves as either alignment because if he appears to be hogging the hammer, my M1.4 might get approved much to his dismay.
M1.4 I pick Rob. We approve. No alignment.
M1.5 JohnX takes the bribe (being picked on M1.3) and approves. He could be picking a spymate but that???s a dangerous policy ??? see my discussion on M2.2. More likely as a spy he picked a res and hopes to fail M2 with two res aboard. If he???s a res, he just plain and simple took the bribe and will probably pay the price if it comes down to a Sarah/JohnX war later.
PASS-PASS. I don???t care what Sarah says about failing as a spy, failing M1 in a 5 player game is bat s**t crazy and I give her too much credit to make the game easier for the res that way. Slight minus for trying to convince us that she would have failed M1 as a spy ??? offset by the plus that if JohnX is a spy, he probably didn???t pick a teammate.
SO FAR, NO GOOD READS.
M2.1: Rob picked me, Jer, himself, and only he approved. At the time I thought it unlikely that M1 was double spy but the odds of that have increased somewhat since then. I presume Jer thought the same as I did. Slight plus to Jer as I think he would be more likely to approve if he were a spy and JohnX was res. No alignment for Rob here: he???s pretty sure it???s not going and as a res he???s lengthening the game and giving the spies more of a chance to make a mistake; while as a spy, he???s trying to plant a seed of doubt in others??? minds.
M2.2 Jer picked M1+himself and nobody approved. Given later actions, this is a minus for both Sarah and JohnX as both of them preferred JohnX as hammer calling the same team. On the other hand, lengthening the game is good for res so these aren???t damning rejects for anybody.
M2.3 Sarah calls the same team, and this time Sarah and Jer approve. Why on earth would Jer approve making Sarah hammer when he didn???t want the hammer himself? If JohnX rejected to hammer a better team, that???s one thing, but he???s hammer hogging here. Of course if he???s res, that???s fine, but his reject puts doubt on the Sarah/JohnX spy team.
M2.4: I pick myself, Rob, Sarah. Rob and I approve. Sarah apparently thinks JohnX is good, and is going to let him pick the third. Puts the Sarah/JohnX team more likely again.
M2.5: JohnX picks Jer. Sarah. One fail. What???s this say about the six teams? Not a lot, since any two of those have an easy spy coordination since JohnX proposed. So, anybody who took action to let JohnX propose is suspect. Jer looks slightly better in that regard because he approved M2.3 which might be a tougher coordination. Of course, if Jer is the only spy??? Because the way the mission was worded, I don???t think both Johns are spies.
Now we get down to M3.
M3.1: Rob picks him and me. We both approve. Not alignment indicative.
M3.2 Jer picks Sarah and me. Jer and I approve. Sarah continues to play the best player on the spy team (as either res or spy.) If she is res, this passes with two res, but if she is spy, she doesn???t want Jer to have the M4 hammer. So I am reducing the odds for a Jer/Sarah spy team.
Now, TBH, Sarah may reject because she wants her or JohnX to hammer M4. However, this is a dangerous game and she should know it. First, Rob has already offered to off approve my M3.4. Second, by continuing to reject teams with me on it, she???s guaranteeing that the team that gets sent in M3.4 will be me and Jer who has already expressed trust in me.
However, the thing that bugs me is, if Sarah is a spy, why wouldn???t she hop aboard M3.2, pass it, and gain trust for M4 and M5? It???s really difficult for me to figure out Sarah???s game as a res, but it???s even more difficult for me to figure out her game as a spy, so I???m inclined to think she is a really confused res! However, that is maybe what she wants me to think. In any event, she has made it very clear to me that she wants no part of me until at least M4 and I will have to honor her wishes by pretending she is a spy until M4 even though I???m not inclined to think that despite all the minuses she has chalked up this game.
So, going on just voting, I really have no clue. It???s time to look at the chat and see if there are any clues there.
Kaitlyn Smith
Aargh, just read through the whole thing and the only thing that strikes me is that Sarah is bouncing around from one idea to another at warp speed. She is really trying hard to drive a wedge between Rob and I and TBH Rob seems the most ressish now. I had Sarah there until I read through everything, but she seems way too much like a spy who is grasping at any possibility to sew confusion.

Sarah, if you're res, I'm sorry, but this is just the way it appears to me. TBH at this point, even if you had sent and passed M3.2, I'm not sure I'd want you on M4. I mean, just look at your posts. Do they not smack of "let's see who I can put the blame on this second"?
Sarah
Kait.. you've played with me. This is my playstyle. I am thinking out loud and trying to solve the game. If you're a rebel we will lose if we dont find one another
Sarah
I appreciate the analysis but you're overanalyzing me here. Also, 99% of the time i fail m1. This is not a sarahspy game.
Sarah
M3.3 Sarah: Sarah, Johnorama

Voting links: YES/NO
Eugene Wong
Sarah, and Johnorama, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Kaitlyn Smith
Discussion time!

Rob said he would off approve. I believe him. It makes little sense for me to choose someone who will reject.

If approved, it would put the M4 hammer in res hands. On the other hand, since I've not been on missions, I have less information than any res on M2.

By this reasoning, if John X was res, if would be better for him to hammer. If not he can succeed M3 and continue to fool the res.

Assuming M3.4 passes, will the M4 votes give me enough information to pick a winning team?

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, especially Bob's since if I accept his generous offer, he should have some say into my mission mate.

Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Discussion time!

Rob said he would off approve. I believe him. It makes little sense for me to choose someone who will reject.

If approved, it would put the M4 hammer in res hands. On the other hand, since I've not been on missions, I have less information than any res on M2.

By this reasoning, if John X was res, if would be better for him to hammer. If not he can succeed M3 and continue to fool the res.

Assuming M3.4 passes, will the M4 votes give me enough information to pick a winning team?

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, especially Bob's since if I accept his generous offer, he should have some say into my mission mate.



But if you're a rebel-- do you seriously trust Rob? If you do then you're saying there were two spies on m2. And from my pov that would mean both Johns are spies and I find that weird. Sooooo.. if you are really a rebel, I highly doubt Rob is.
John X
My plan didn't work .

I didn't really want Sarah to propose me but I didn't really want to push for it to be Rob either. I wanted Sarah + Rob because I could actually send it, but this mission couldn't realistically get a third vote.

When I said to bring me cause I passed M1 I was kind of hoping it would be a bad enough reason that it would scare her over to picking Rob.

I do think Sarah's clean but I also agree with Kait saying passing M1 means very little if anything at all.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Assuming M3.4 passes, will the M4 votes give me enough information to pick a winning team?

Almost certainly not, or at least I have no idea how you'd correctly determine my near guaranteed no vote is coming from a rebel and one of the approvals is coming from a spy.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

My plan didn't work .

I didn't really want Sarah to propose me but I didn't really want to push for it to be Rob either. I wanted Sarah + Rob because I could actually send it, but this mission couldn't realistically get a third vote.

When I said to bring me cause I passed M1 I was kind of hoping it would be a bad enough reason that it would scare her over to picking Rob.

I do think Sarah's clean but I also agree with Kait saying passing M1 means very little if anything at all.


Yeah, I guess I didn't think about the votes-- I was just thinking about picking who I think is most likely a rebel and I think that's you. I strongly disagree about M1. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to you in terms of your style on failing/passing it as a spy but I think prior games are always going to be a factor. There are very few times I wouldn't fail an M1 if I have the chance. I have faith in my ability to claim I was framed and I think it's just way too advantageous to create that dichotomy. If others sometimes fail/sometimes don't then that's fine. It's just not my style. I also feel like you're more likely than many to fail M1. I could see you mixing it up more than I do but I feel like you would have taken the chance to frame me there.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

My plan didn't work .

I didn't really want Sarah to propose me but I didn't really want to push for it to be Rob either. I wanted Sarah + Rob because I could actually send it, but this mission couldn't realistically get a third vote.

When I said to bring me cause I passed M1 I was kind of hoping it would be a bad enough reason that it would scare her over to picking Rob.

I do think Sarah's clean but I also agree with Kait saying passing M1 means very little if anything at all.


Yeah, I guess I didn't think about the votes-- I was just thinking about picking who I think is most likely a rebel and I think that's you. I strongly disagree about M1. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to you in terms of your style on failing/passing it as a spy but I think prior games are always going to be a factor. There are very few times I wouldn't fail an M1 if I have the chance. I have faith in my ability to claim I was framed and I think it's just way too advantageous to create that dichotomy. If others sometimes fail/sometimes don't then that's fine. It's just not my style. I also feel like you're more likely than many to fail M1. I could see you mixing it up more than I do but I feel like you would have taken the chance to frame me there.

I don't know if I'd fail or not but speculating on it is at best useless and at worst deceitful. Even saying that much is pretty useless.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

My plan didn't work .

I didn't really want Sarah to propose me but I didn't really want to push for it to be Rob either. I wanted Sarah + Rob because I could actually send it, but this mission couldn't realistically get a third vote.

When I said to bring me cause I passed M1 I was kind of hoping it would be a bad enough reason that it would scare her over to picking Rob.

I do think Sarah's clean but I also agree with Kait saying passing M1 means very little if anything at all.


Yeah, I guess I didn't think about the votes-- I was just thinking about picking who I think is most likely a rebel and I think that's you. I strongly disagree about M1. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to you in terms of your style on failing/passing it as a spy but I think prior games are always going to be a factor. There are very few times I wouldn't fail an M1 if I have the chance. I have faith in my ability to claim I was framed and I think it's just way too advantageous to create that dichotomy. If others sometimes fail/sometimes don't then that's fine. It's just not my style. I also feel like you're more likely than many to fail M1. I could see you mixing it up more than I do but I feel like you would have taken the chance to frame me there.

I don't know if I'd fail or not but speculating on it is at best useless and at worst deceitful. Even saying that much is pretty useless.


How is knowing how someone normally plays useless knowledge? If Player A, as a spy, would normally propose missions with their spy buddy on it AND them then that is something I would want to know. Or if player C is known for never voting up missions their buddy is on then that's something to take note of. There is not a lot to go on in pbf games without reading body language so I have no idea why you guys wouldn't consider prior games and styles in deciphering alignment.
Sarah
And of course it's not going to be "every single time player A is a spy they do X", but patterns do exist and that is useful knowledge.
Kaitlyn Smith
John X, if you are res, its probably a good thing you didn't get to off apoorive Sarah and Rob, because you were never going to be on a res M4 if that failed. I'm very unforgiving in that way - If you off approve when you hold the hazmner, you had better be right.
Kaitlyn Smith
In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.


:\ Why do you think that? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a John-John team. I could see you as a rebel and maybe Jerival was doing something weird there to spook me and make me think you're a spy. I just feel like you trust Rob and I don't understand how. I know I have more knowledge since I know I am a rebel and I feel like I wasn't on a double spy mission-- so, it really feels like one of you or Rob is certainly a spy. I don't understand why you trust him.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

And of course it's not going to be "every single time player A is a spy they do X", but patterns do exist and that is useful knowledge.

Replying to this one just cause it's shorter, but that relies on players not being self-aware. Like the example of you failing M1, I believe you like failing it and maybe even usually would, but once you start arguing that or if I even suspect you might have thought of it I can't use that trend.

Sure there's lots of reasons you might fail M1 but I can't know that you didn't weigh the options and say "being able to say this is worth not getting the early point". At the risk speaking for him it's why Rob doesn't care about "evilsplaining". I can't believe any point that starts with "if I were a spy" because if you were a spy then you'd know you planned on defending yourself and could just go against what you honestly and legitimately normally do.

If there's a trend and the player knows they have that trend then it's useless because it's just a WIFOM game of "is this the game they're breaking it or not" no matter what the percentages are.

It's like a tell in poker. If I know I have a tell then it's really not a tell anymore, as I can probably control it or at the very least fake it when it doesn't apply. It's only useful when it's unconscious.

So it's very much possible that you'd usually fail when you can, but once you argue that you would it's clearly a conscious decision and I can't think I'm smart and read into it anymore, it's just WIFOM then.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

John X, if you are res, its probably a good thing you didn't get to off apoorive Sarah and Rob, because you were never going to be on a res M4 if that failed. I'm very unforgiving in that way - If you off approve when you hold the hazmner, you had better be right.

Why does the hammer matter? You're pretty clearly getting votes from yourself, Jerival & Rob.

I really don't have the hammer this mission.
John X

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

John X, if you are res, its probably a good thing you didn't get to off apoorive Sarah and Rob, because you were never going to be on a res M4 if that failed. I'm very unforgiving in that way - If you off approve when you hold the hazmner, you had better be right.

Why does the hammer matter? You're pretty clearly getting votes from yourself, Jerival & Rob.

I really don't have the hammer this mission.
Actually that's not really true, I'm not sure what Rob will do.

I'm sure you have Jerival's vote though, unless you bring me basically.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

And of course it's not going to be "every single time player A is a spy they do X", but patterns do exist and that is useful knowledge.

Replying to this one just cause it's shorter, but that relies on players not being self-aware. Like the example of you failing M1, I believe you like failing it and maybe even usually would, but once you start arguing that or if I even suspect you might have thought of it I can't use that trend.

Sure there's lots of reasons you might fail M1 but I can't know that you didn't weigh the options and say "being able to say this is worth not getting the early point". At the risk speaking for him it's why Rob doesn't care about "evilsplaining". I can't believe any point that starts with "if I were a spy" because if you were a spy then you'd know you planned on defending yourself and could just go against what you honestly and legitimately normally do.

If there's a trend and the player knows they have that trend then it's useless because it's just a WIFOM game of "is this the game they're breaking it or not" no matter what the percentages are.

It's like a tell in poker. If I know I have a tell then it's really not a tell anymore, as I can probably control it or at the very least fake it when it doesn't apply. It's only useful when it's unconscious.

So it's very much possible that you'd usually fail when you can, but once you argue that you would it's clearly a conscious decision and I can't think I'm smart and read into it anymore, it's just WIFOM then.


Sure, I can use it as WIFOM in some situations. I can cite werewolf as an example. I HATE to bus a co-wolf when I am evil and rarely do it. However, I will do it if it is necessary for the situation like: there's a seer hit on a co-wolf, the two people being voted are both evils, the co-wolf has a brutal I want them to use, etc. The point still is that it is generally a way to play and a style that I like. I CAN change it and start passing m1 as a spy, but then I cant say things like that without being called out on it. So, every game I draw spy then and get on the first mission I would have to weigh "is this the game I give up on my normal meta of failing m1 and pass it, is that worth losing this argument for future games?". The answer is pretty much always no. There'd be a reason I wouldn't fail it-- like if we were both spies OR if I felt like I was on a mission with someone who would just never fail it as a spy and I thought I would lose the battle with them. There are always exceptions to rules but people still play in certain ways. I will adapt my play by the players but it doesn't mean I wont hold strong views on when fails are good. Failing m1 is just so beneficial in a 5 player game. I'd love to see the stats but I would bet that spies win the vast majority of 5ers where m1 is failed.
Sarah
I do get your wifom argument and it can always be wifom but I will still argue that peoples' general style is a great way to read people. I just don't get how threads get dead quiet and people try base their reads simply on votes. I think reading votes can be a lot harder than using prior experience with players to try to read them.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

I do get your wifom argument and it can always be wifom but I will still argue that peoples' general style is a great way to read people. I just don't get how threads get dead quiet and people try base their reads simply on votes. I think reading votes can be a lot harder than using prior experience with players to try to read them.

I totally agree that pure voting data isn't enough, and I don't want to sound like using expectations is bad.

My point is that I can't care when you say "when I'm a spy I do X" because either I don't have that experience myself and you could easily be lying, or I do have that experience and knowing you do X should already be part of my decision making.

I know it makes it tricky to defend yourself but it makes the statement useless, on par with "I'm a rebel".
Kaitlyn Smith
Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.
Kaitlyn Smith
To Sarah: why are you eliminating the double John spy team?
Kaitlyn Smith
To Jer: What makes you favor Sarah over John X?
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?
Kaitlyn Smith
Besides,I never said that it is a blunder, I simply said that it's a reason why I can't let you pick the team if I can help it.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Discussion time!

Rob said he would off approve. I believe him. It makes little sense for me to choose someone who will reject.

If approved, it would put the M4 hammer in res hands. On the other hand, since I've not been on missions, I have less information than any res on M2.

By this reasoning, if John X was res, if would be better for him to hammer. If not he can succeed M3 and continue to fool the res.

Assuming M3.4 passes, will the M4 votes give me enough information to pick a winning team?

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, especially Bob's since if I accept his generous offer, he should have some say into my mission mate.


I really don't like Sarah. I have read to the end of page 9 and here is what I know. I trust you due to her voting patterns. She is trying her best to make you not trust me, all based on the assumption she is res (so she talks of john-john spy team.) Usually, when a person has a world that doesn't make sense, it is because they are a spy. She claims that john-john cannot be, and therefore we aren't on the same side. That only makes me trust you more. (It's a gutsy move from her if you are spies together.)
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Besides,I never said that it is a blunder, I simply said that it's a reason why I can't let you pick the team if I can help it.


Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

John X, if you are res, its probably a good thing you didn't get to off apoorive Sarah and Rob, because you were never going to be on a res M4 if that failed. I'm very unforgiving in that way - If you off approve when you hold the hazmner, you had better be right.

You didn't use those exact words but you don't get to backpedal and pretend you were only saying you'd prefer to pick your team. You think it's bad enough that you'd throw the whole game on the assumption only a spy could do that vote.

Either you know that's an overly strong stance when we might both be rebels not seeing each other or you really do think it's that bad and in that hypothetical world I should never get on any M4. Either is possible but please don't try to tell me it's both.
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Kate, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!

Wow. Wait. Sarah screwes up. I just caught something... look at this vote. Then read what she says.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.


:\ Why do you think that? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a John-John team. I could see you as a rebel and maybe Jerival was doing something weird there to spook me and make me think you're a spy. I just feel like you trust Rob and I don't understand how. I know I have more knowledge since I know I am a rebel and I feel like I wasn't on a double spy mission-- so, it really feels like one of you or Rob is certainly a spy. I don't understand why you trust him.

Hmm. Ok. I guess she explains it. I am very tired here, but this is what I see from her. She is trying to convince Kait I am spy, but obviously didn't want to go on a mission with Kait. She could have proposed sarah/kait for m3.3, and jerival probably votes it up. But she doesn't. Instead she proposes a team that basically only Kait would have upvoted, and even that is unlikely since Kait is next to propose AND Kait knows I like her m3.4.

Seems to me Sarah is playing the same game all game; downvote teams she is on. Either she is a res that completely trusts JohnX or she is a spy that is comfortable with not being on mission.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?

I'm surprised it's taken this long for this question as I don't think I've been particularly subtle, but it's partly process of elimination and it's partly just reads.

Elimination because M2 doesn't really strike me as double-spy and I'm mostly looking favourably on Rob so you'd be a spy. Reads because with the exception of some of your last few posts a lot of what you have said felt like putting on a show or kind of grand-standing to me.

At the risk of being offensive I know it's kind of just how you come across (to me anyway) but I see more "look how much thought I'm putting in" than "here's hunches and conclusions based on my thoughts". Super nitpicky example, but the way you started a post a page or so ago with "Aaargh" is that kind of emotional word that is saying "look how much I'm trying and frustrated" instead of actually just figuring stuff out.

I know those kinds of things creep into my game when I'm a spy because selling what rebel-John should be experiencing becomes more important than just figuring the game out.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?

Sweet. So if JohnX believes that, then I am cleared as res in his world(since m2 is dirty.)
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?

I'm surprised it's taken this long for this question as I don't think I've been particularly subtle, but it's partly process of elimination and it's partly just reads.

Elimination because M2 doesn't really strike me as double-spy and I'm mostly looking favourably on Rob so you'd be a spy. Reads because with the exception of some of your last few posts a lot of what you have said felt like putting on a show or kind of grand-standing to me.

At the risk of being offensive I know it's kind of just how you come across (to me anyway) but I see more "look how much thought I'm putting in" than "here's hunches and conclusions based on my thoughts". Super nitpicky example, but the way you started a post a page or so ago with "Aaargh" is that kind of emotional word that is saying "look how much I'm trying and frustrated" instead of actually just figuring stuff out.

I know those kinds of things creep into my game when I'm a spy because selling what rebel-John should be experiencing becomes more important than just figuring the game out.

I cross posted with this..
John X

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?

Sweet. So if JohnX believes that, then I am cleared as res in his world(since m2 is dirty.)

Well you're only cleared as much as Kaitlyn is guaranteed a spy, which isn't all that much.

It is definitely the way I'm leaning though. Also rethinking double-spy M2 a bit but I don't think I'm ready to admit I could have picked both spies.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Alignment based on missions:
M1.1: Rob picks Rob and Jer and they approve. No alignment.
M1.2 Jer picks Jer and Sarah. Only Jer approves. Slight minus for Sarah who picked JohnX on her own proposal ??? she???s pretty sure she???s not getting hammer so why should she not approve? If it goes and fails she gets gobs of information. Instead she seems hellbent on JohnX hammering. I don???t play like Sarah but it???s hard to see this as a res.
M1.3 Sarah picks Sarah and JohnX and they approve. As I pointed out, this makes Sarah???s M1.2 play look worse. JohnX approves as either alignment because if he appears to be hogging the hammer, my M1.4 might get approved much to his dismay.
M1.4 I pick Rob. We approve. No alignment.
M1.5 JohnX takes the bribe (being picked on M1.3) and approves. He could be picking a spymate but that???s a dangerous policy ??? see my discussion on M2.2. More likely as a spy he picked a res and hopes to fail M2 with two res aboard. If he???s a res, he just plain and simple took the bribe and will probably pay the price if it comes down to a Sarah/JohnX war later.
PASS-PASS. I don???t care what Sarah says about failing as a spy, failing M1 in a 5 player game is bat s**t crazy and I give her too much credit to make the game easier for the res that way. Slight minus for trying to convince us that she would have failed M1 as a spy ??? offset by the plus that if JohnX is a spy, he probably didn???t pick a teammate.
SO FAR, NO GOOD READS.
M2.1: Rob picked me, Jer, himself, and only he approved. At the time I thought it unlikely that M1 was double spy but the odds of that have increased somewhat since then. I presume Jer thought the same as I did. Slight plus to Jer as I think he would be more likely to approve if he were a spy and JohnX was res. No alignment for Rob here: he???s pretty sure it???s not going and as a res he???s lengthening the game and giving the spies more of a chance to make a mistake; while as a spy, he???s trying to plant a seed of doubt in others??? minds.
M2.2 Jer picked M1+himself and nobody approved. Given later actions, this is a minus for both Sarah and JohnX as both of them preferred JohnX as hammer calling the same team. On the other hand, lengthening the game is good for res so these aren???t damning rejects for anybody.
M2.3 Sarah calls the same team, and this time Sarah and Jer approve. Why on earth would Jer approve making Sarah hammer when he didn???t want the hammer himself? If JohnX rejected to hammer a better team, that???s one thing, but he???s hammer hogging here. Of course if he???s res, that???s fine, but his reject puts doubt on the Sarah/JohnX spy team.
M2.4: I pick myself, Rob, Sarah. Rob and I approve. Sarah apparently thinks JohnX is good, and is going to let him pick the third. Puts the Sarah/JohnX team more likely again.
M2.5: JohnX picks Jer. Sarah. One fail. What???s this say about the six teams? Not a lot, since any two of those have an easy spy coordination since JohnX proposed. So, anybody who took action to let JohnX propose is suspect. Jer looks slightly better in that regard because he approved M2.3 which might be a tougher coordination. Of course, if Jer is the only spy??? Because the way the mission was worded, I don???t think both Johns are spies.
Now we get down to M3.
M3.1: Rob picks him and me. We both approve. Not alignment indicative.
M3.2 Jer picks Sarah and me. Jer and I approve. Sarah continues to play the best player on the spy team (as either res or spy.) If she is res, this passes with two res, but if she is spy, she doesn???t want Jer to have the M4 hammer. So I am reducing the odds for a Jer/Sarah spy team.
Now, TBH, Sarah may reject because she wants her or JohnX to hammer M4. However, this is a dangerous game and she should know it. First, Rob has already offered to off approve my M3.4. Second, by continuing to reject teams with me on it, she???s guaranteeing that the team that gets sent in M3.4 will be me and Jer who has already expressed trust in me.
However, the thing that bugs me is, if Sarah is a spy, why wouldn???t she hop aboard M3.2, pass it, and gain trust for M4 and M5? It???s really difficult for me to figure out Sarah???s game as a res, but it???s even more difficult for me to figure out her game as a spy, so I???m inclined to think she is a really confused res! However, that is maybe what she wants me to think. In any event, she has made it very clear to me that she wants no part of me until at least M4 and I will have to honor her wishes by pretending she is a spy until M4 even though I???m not inclined to think that despite all the minuses she has chalked up this game.
So, going on just voting, I really have no clue. It???s time to look at the chat and see if there are any clues there.

I never commented on this. I need to reread as well. But I will say that my initial thought was that it was a good analysis. Not an "argh."
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Talking to John X here. In case you're res, I need you to understand something. You took Jer and Sarah. Now you are talking Sarah and Rob. There seems to be a player you are trying to avoid. So we all understand why you choosing missions is terrible for me, and why I'm going to do what it takes to avoid it. I'm likely to steal your hammer. Don't take it personally; I'm just pretty sure you can't pick res and if you are res, there's a chance I might pick you in M4 but there's not much chance you would pick me.

Oh it's not personal at all, but you don't get to act like voting for my next favourite team when I have the hammer would be some terrible blunder and at the same time acknowledge it's not going to get to that very hammer.
so If that's your next favorite team, you must think I'm a spy. What on earth W oukkd give you that idea?

Sweet. So if JohnX believes that, then I am cleared as res in his world(since m2 is dirty.)

Well you're only cleared as much as Kaitlyn is guaranteed a spy, which isn't all that much.

It is definitely the way I'm leaning though. Also rethinking double-spy M2 a bit but I don't think I'm ready to admit I could have picked both spies.

Well, double-spy m2 makes a lot more sense if you are one of them...
Rob W
I will say, from my point of view, and with my experience, a double spy m2 that results in a single fail with the mission leader being on the mission is not out of the question. I don't care if 3 John's are on it. We still get 1 fail.

Sarah, if you are res, please be real. It's a lot less suspicious and Kait and I need to find you (in that world.)
John X
I was referring to the quoted one right after, but that one also felt like more of looking like thinking than thinking. I guess I just don't usually feel the need to type up all that mission-by-mission kind of stuff instead of just drawing attention to the parts I find important.

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Aargh, just read through the whole thing and the only thing that strikes me is that Sarah is bouncing around from one idea to another at warp speed. She is really trying hard to drive a wedge between Rob and I and TBH Rob seems the most ressish now. I had Sarah there until I read through everything, but she seems way too much like a spy who is grasping at any possibility to sew confusion.

Sarah, if you're res, I'm sorry, but this is just the way it appears to me. TBH at this point, even if you had sent and passed M3.2, I'm not sure I'd want you on M4. I mean, just look at your posts. Do they not smack of "let's see who I can put the blame on this second"?
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I was referring to the quoted one right after, but that one also felt like more of looking like thinking than thinking. I guess I just don't usually feel the need to type up all that mission-by-mission kind of stuff instead of just drawing attention to the parts I find important.

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Aargh, just read through the whole thing and the only thing that strikes me is that Sarah is bouncing around from one idea to another at warp speed. She is really trying hard to drive a wedge between Rob and I and TBH Rob seems the most ressish now. I had Sarah there until I read through everything, but she seems way too much like a spy who is grasping at any possibility to sew confusion.

Sarah, if you're res, I'm sorry, but this is just the way it appears to me. TBH at this point, even if you had sent and passed M3.2, I'm not sure I'd want you on M4. I mean, just look at your posts. Do they not smack of "let's see who I can put the blame on this second"?

I intrepreted this as frustration with Sarah. And I had the exact same thought about the bouncing as Kait did, before she said it. (So maybe that is why I read it that way.)

My sister plays the same as sarah. Which isn't resish, or spyish, or frustrating to me. But I did notice it. A lot...
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

To Sarah: why are you eliminating the double John spy team?


I'm not! I just think that it is unlikely. One ping in that direction would be when I proposed m1.3 with both of them listed as John and only Jerival votes that up. Would Johnx be hesitant to go on that if he is a spy with Jerival? Johnx proposes it as m1.5 and we all know how that goes but he changes the order/wording on it AND I asssume if he is a spy there's more of an assumption if he is taking a buddy on it then.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Discussion time!

Rob said he would off approve. I believe him. It makes little sense for me to choose someone who will reject.

If approved, it would put the M4 hammer in res hands. On the other hand, since I've not been on missions, I have less information than any res on M2.

By this reasoning, if John X was res, if would be better for him to hammer. If not he can succeed M3 and continue to fool the res.

Assuming M3.4 passes, will the M4 votes give me enough information to pick a winning team?

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, especially Bob's since if I accept his generous offer, he should have some say into my mission mate.


[BGCOLOR=#00CC00]I really don't like Sarah. I[/BGCOLOR] have read to the end of page 9 and here is what I know. I trust you due to her voting patterns. [BGCOLOR=#00CC00]She is trying her best to make you not trust me, all based on the assumption she is res (so she talks of john-john spy team.)[/BGCOLOR] Usually, when a person has a world that doesn't make sense, it is because they are a spy. She claims that john-john cannot be, and therefore we aren't on the same side. That only makes me trust you more. ([BGCOLOR=#00CC00]It's a gutsy move from her if you are spies together.[/BGCOLOR])


highlight 1: surprise boooooooooooooo
highlight 2: that's completely wrong; I'm telling her that I think these are the odds. I was on that mission and the only way it was double spy is if it was both of the Johns. It certainly could be that but I'm having a hard time seeing it. The funny thing is that I was leaning more toward you being a rebel than Kait but some of this recent stuff of yours.. feels like you're trying to slime me and pocket her.
highlight 3: How is this a ballsy move? That actually seems like a pretty basic move/argument??
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.


:\ Why do you think that? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a John-John team. I could see you as a rebel and maybe Jerival was doing something weird there to spook me and make me think you're a spy. I just feel like you trust Rob and I don't understand how. I know I have more knowledge since I know I am a rebel and I feel like I wasn't on a double spy mission-- so, it really feels like one of you or Rob is certainly a spy. I don't understand why you trust him.

Hmm. Ok. I guess she explains it. I am very tired here, but this is what I see from her. She is trying to convince Kait I am spy, but obviously didn't want to go on a mission with Kait. She could have proposed sarah/kait for m3.3, and jerival probably votes it up. But she doesn't. Instead she proposes a team that basically only Kait would have upvoted, and even that is unlikely since Kait is next to propose AND Kait knows I like her m3.4.

Seems to me Sarah is playing the same game all game; downvote teams she is on. Either she is a res that completely trusts JohnX or she is a spy that is comfortable with not being on mission.


I feel like you might be a spy here who is trying to slime me because I have the most posts and you believe easiest fodder. I will NEVER completely trust Johnorama unless I am Merlin or have somehow viewed him and had mod-confirmation. That's pretty much how I treat everyone. I'll always live in worlds of paranoia. Also, I feel like you keep throwing out this stuff about my voting. Why on earth would I not want to go on missions as a spy? I am FAR more likely to vote those missions up and get whoever I can to trust me. I'll play the room to whoever I think is most likely to trust me and I would vote any mission I am on that I think would pass (and not make me look shady for doing it). I think I could have upvoted a lot of missions I was on without anyone thinking much of it. However, in a five player game 50% of you are spies and I want to make sure if I am going on a mission that it's with someone I really trust. I've pulled some of my old games so you can see my voting. I feel like your main argument on me has been "she hasn't voted missions she is on so she is a spy" which makes absolutely no sense to me. It feels like you're looking for reasons to point a finger at me.

Games I was a spy:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24808286#24808286
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23685281#23685281
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23503364#23503364
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21882471#21882471
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18867906#18867906

Games I was a rebel:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23560104#23560104
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20095546#20095546

Apparently the moral of the story is I am a spy far more often than I am a rebel. (I swear I am a rebel here though ).
Sarah

rwright wrote:

I will say, from my point of view, and with my experience, a double spy m2 that results in a single fail with the mission leader being on the mission is not out of the question. I don't care if 3 John's are on it. We still get 1 fail.

[BGCOLOR=#00CC00]Sarah, if you are res, please be real. It's a lot less suspicious and Kait and I need to find you (in that world.)[/BGCOLOR]


Be real on what? I'm being as real as I can be here so...
Sarah
I will let Jerival check in but I have a pretty solid reason I think he's a spy. I don't want to say it in case he tries to 'correct' that reason.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I was referring to the quoted one right after, but that one also felt like more of looking like thinking than thinking. I guess I just don't usually feel the need to type up all that mission-by-mission kind of stuff instead of just drawing attention to the parts I find important.

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Aargh, just read through the whole thing and the only thing that strikes me is that Sarah is bouncing around from one idea to another at warp speed. She is really trying hard to drive a wedge between Rob and I and TBH Rob seems the most ressish now. I had Sarah there until I read through everything, but she seems way too much like a spy who is grasping at any possibility to sew confusion.

Sarah, if you're res, I'm sorry, but this is just the way it appears to me. TBH at this point, even if you had sent and passed M3.2, I'm not sure I'd want you on M4. I mean, just look at your posts. Do they not smack of "let's see who I can put the blame on this second"?

I intrepreted this as frustration with Sarah. And I had the exact same thought about the bouncing as Kait did, before she said it. (So maybe that is why I read it that way.)

[BGCOLOR=#00CC00]My sister plays the same as sarah. Which isn't resish, or spyish, or frustrating to me. But I did notice it. A lot...[/BGCOLOR]


Isn't that optimal though-- to always play in a similar manner?
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.


:\ Why do you think that? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a John-John team. I could see you as a rebel and maybe Jerival was doing something weird there to spook me and make me think you're a spy. I just feel like you trust Rob and I don't understand how. I know I have more knowledge since I know I am a rebel and I feel like I wasn't on a double spy mission-- so, it really feels like one of you or Rob is certainly a spy. I don't understand why you trust him.

Hmm. Ok. I guess she explains it. I am very tired here, but this is what I see from her. She is trying to convince Kait I am spy, but obviously didn't want to go on a mission with Kait. She could have proposed sarah/kait for m3.3, and jerival probably votes it up. But she doesn't. Instead she proposes a team that basically only Kait would have upvoted, and even that is unlikely since Kait is next to propose AND Kait knows I like her m3.4.

Seems to me Sarah is playing the same game all game; downvote teams she is on. Either she is a res that completely trusts JohnX or she is a spy that is comfortable with not being on mission.


I feel like you might be a spy here who is trying to slime me because I have the most posts and you believe easiest fodder. I will NEVER completely trust Johnorama unless I am Merlin or have somehow viewed him and had mod-confirmation. That's pretty much how I treat everyone. I'll always live in worlds of paranoia. Also, I feel like you keep throwing out this stuff about my voting. Why on earth would I not want to go on missions as a spy? I am FAR more likely to vote those missions up and get whoever I can to trust me. I'll play the room to whoever I think is most likely to trust me and I would vote any mission I am on that I think would pass (and not make me look shady for doing it). I think I could have upvoted a lot of missions I was on without anyone thinking much of it. However, in a five player game 50% of you are spies and I want to make sure if I am going on a mission that it's with someone I really trust. I've pulled some of my old games so you can see my voting. I feel like your main argument on me has been "she hasn't voted missions she is on so she is a spy" which makes absolutely no sense to me. It feels like you're looking for reasons to point a finger at me.

Games I was a spy:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24808286#24808286
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23685281#23685281
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23503364#23503364
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21882471#21882471
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18867906#18867906

Games I was a rebel:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23560104#23560104
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20095546#20095546

Apparently the moral of the story is I am a spy far more often than I am a rebel. (I swear I am a rebel here though).

I said it before and I'll say it again: I think you are a spy because of your voting. You can make hundreds of good ressish posts. But what counts is votes/proposals and yours are most suspect. Esp m2.4 followed by a fail on m2.5.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I was referring to the quoted one right after, but that one also felt like more of looking like thinking than thinking. I guess I just don't usually feel the need to type up all that mission-by-mission kind of stuff instead of just drawing attention to the parts I find important.

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Aargh, just read through the whole thing and the only thing that strikes me is that Sarah is bouncing around from one idea to another at warp speed. She is really trying hard to drive a wedge between Rob and I and TBH Rob seems the most ressish now. I had Sarah there until I read through everything, but she seems way too much like a spy who is grasping at any possibility to sew confusion.

Sarah, if you're res, I'm sorry, but this is just the way it appears to me. TBH at this point, even if you had sent and passed M3.2, I'm not sure I'd want you on M4. I mean, just look at your posts. Do they not smack of "let's see who I can put the blame on this second"?

I intrepreted this as frustration with Sarah. And I had the exact same thought about the bouncing as Kait did, before she said it. (So maybe that is why I read it that way.)

[BGCOLOR=#00CC00]My sister plays the same as sarah. Which isn't resish, or spyish, or frustrating to me. But I did notice it. A lot...[/BGCOLOR]


Isn't that optimal though-- to always play in a similar manner?

Yes exactly. Which is why I look at votes and proposals and not what you are saying. Which is why I said it isn't ressish or spyish.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

In fact it's downright scary that you even wanted this mission. That almost certainlhh means that at least one of M4 and M5 is going to be wasted from my POV, and from the vibes I'm getting from Sarah, it's going to be hard to win unless you're both spies.


:\ Why do you think that? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a John-John team. I could see you as a rebel and maybe Jerival was doing something weird there to spook me and make me think you're a spy. I just feel like you trust Rob and I don't understand how. I know I have more knowledge since I know I am a rebel and I feel like I wasn't on a double spy mission-- so, it really feels like one of you or Rob is certainly a spy. I don't understand why you trust him.

Hmm. Ok. I guess she explains it. I am very tired here, but this is what I see from her. She is trying to convince Kait I am spy, but obviously didn't want to go on a mission with Kait. She could have proposed sarah/kait for m3.3, and jerival probably votes it up. But she doesn't. Instead she proposes a team that basically only Kait would have upvoted, and even that is unlikely since Kait is next to propose AND Kait knows I like her m3.4.

Seems to me Sarah is playing the same game all game; downvote teams she is on. Either she is a res that completely trusts JohnX or she is a spy that is comfortable with not being on mission.


I feel like you might be a spy here who is trying to slime me because I have the most posts and you believe easiest fodder. I will NEVER completely trust Johnorama unless I am Merlin or have somehow viewed him and had mod-confirmation. That's pretty much how I treat everyone. I'll always live in worlds of paranoia. Also, I feel like you keep throwing out this stuff about my voting. Why on earth would I not want to go on missions as a spy? I am FAR more likely to vote those missions up and get whoever I can to trust me. I'll play the room to whoever I think is most likely to trust me and I would vote any mission I am on that I think would pass (and not make me look shady for doing it). I think I could have upvoted a lot of missions I was on without anyone thinking much of it. However, in a five player game 50% of you are spies and I want to make sure if I am going on a mission that it's with someone I really trust. I've pulled some of my old games so you can see my voting. I feel like your main argument on me has been "she hasn't voted missions she is on so she is a spy" which makes absolutely no sense to me. It feels like you're looking for reasons to point a finger at me.

Games I was a spy:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24808286#24808286
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23685281#23685281
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23503364#23503364
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21882471#21882471
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18867906#18867906

Games I was a rebel:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23560104#23560104
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20095546#20095546

Apparently the moral of the story is I am a spy far more often than I am a rebel. (I swear I am a rebel here though).

I said it before and I'll say it again: I think you are a spy because of your voting. You can make hundreds of good ressish posts. But what counts is votes/proposals and yours are most suspect. Esp m2.4 followed by a fail on m2.5.


This is why I normally play werewolf. Voting should always just be one aspect of judging someone. Now I have to figure out if you're saying that because you're misguided or because you're using it as an excuse to accuse me because you're a spy.
Sarah
You've probably played with John more than I have-- does he have a history of taking co-spies when he is a spy?
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

You've probably played with John more than I have-- does he have a history of taking co-spies when he is a spy?

I don't care about that. Everyone here is good enough to do that or not do it if it is advantageous. Same thing with floating; I don't care about history.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

You've probably played with John more than I have-- does he have a history of taking co-spies when he is a spy?

I don't care about that. Everyone here is good enough to do that or not do it if it is advantageous. Same thing with floating; I don't care about history.


So, you only read people based on voting? If I am a spy and know that you don't care about anything else then I would easily manipulate my voting when playing with you.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

You've probably played with John more than I have-- does he have a history of taking co-spies when he is a spy?

I don't care about that. Everyone here is good enough to do that or not do it if it is advantageous. Same thing with floating; I don't care about history.


So, you only read people based on voting? If I am a spy and know that you don't care about anything else then I would easily manipulate my voting when playing with you.

Yes.

Go ahead and try.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

You've probably played with John more than I have-- does he have a history of taking co-spies when he is a spy?

I don't care about that. Everyone here is good enough to do that or not do it if it is advantageous. Same thing with floating; I don't care about history.


So, you only read people based on voting? If I am a spy and know that you don't care about anything else then I would easily manipulate my voting when playing with you.

Yes.

Go ahead and try.


I'm not a spy but next time I play with you and I am, I will definitely keep this in mind.
Kaitlyn Smith
When somebody is trying to shade me, they can be a res who has it wrong (or in a different game, has it right), or they can be a spy. A res could shade me looking for my reaction, or because they honestly believe I'm spyish. A spy would try to shade me because they want to influence another res into believing that I'm spyish.

Normally, I would assume that I'm not acting spyish enough that it's more likely that someone who is trying to shade me is a spy. However, it pays to look at the reasons I'm being shaded.

First, Sarah. I don't put much into her shading of me since this game she has also shaded Rob and both Johns. So she could be a spy just flinging confusion or she could be a res that just has no idea. It bugs me a bit that she picks on the way I word my proposal, then when I show her that I word it that way in another game where I'm res, she claims I'm being defensive and therefore a spy. This appears more like the spyish type of shading.

While she has shaded everybody, it seems that her trust in JohnX is pretty steadfast and that her shading of him was fake. This makes a Sarah-JohnX spyteam a lot more likely to me. I have no doubt that this team could arrange a single fail in M2.

Now to JohnX's shading of me. He is trying to appear as a res who is working the game out, and he really didn't come out and shade me except indirectly by his actions. He claims that I'm spyish based on my lack of posts trying to implicate spies. The funny thing is, I don't see any reason to implicate spies when I don't have any clue who they are. I could be like Sarah and point out several reasons why each and every one of you could be a spy, but I think that's counterproductive. Also, why should I use flimsy evidence to shade somebody when that person has a 50% chance of being res and he/she might think I'm deliberately trying to shade them?

John has played a lot of Avalon games with me. These are different. I have to make a lot of bold accusations in Avalon as a res because I need to be a Merlin candidate in the final assassination. So I have to pretend to be trying to disseminate information to my teammates despite my cluelessness. I'm going to be a lot more talkative, and going to appear to be "working out the game" a lot more simply because I want to be a possible decoy Merlin. This is plain Resistance. I can fill the thread with all sorts of nonsense but that would only serve to make it harder for my res teammates to figure things out. In plain Resistance, I think that the posts should be more substantial; I have no assassin to fool; the only thing I have to do is bring my two teammates and I together.

Jer apparently understands that well (or perhaps is just a very quiet player.) He has said almost nothing this game. Maybe he is a spy who doesn't want to risk exposing himself or his spy buddy. But he may be a res who just doesn't have anything substantial to add to the conversation.

Then there's Rob. Rob has an unconventional style but is surprisingly good at figuring out the res and spies. He's figured out one res already. Is he a res?

Right now I think he is a res and that M2 was a double. Now, it has crossed my mind that if Rob is a spy, his M3 plan is simply brilliant. He sees at least one res shading me, and figures if he puts me at the top of his res list, it will be M5 before I figure it out and by then, the third res will probably go with him rather than me (especially with the current climate.) So he essentially ensures victory as a spy. And yes, Rob is capable of such a ploy.

However, I don't think this is happening. I think he's a res that is trying to figure out who the other two res are. One of them will be the lone res on M2. We've got at most two shots to find out who that person is, unless I pick a spy now and that spy fails M3 to give us a lot of info.

I'm leaning toward picking Jer here because I think it will get three votes and it will either pass or give a fair amount of info. I'm also tempted to pick either Rob and hope that Jer off approves, or to pick Sarah. I see absolutely no point in picking JohnX as he will refuse and will choose his favorite team, which almost certainly does not include me.

I hope Jer weighs in soon - I'd like to hear from him before I propose.
Eugene Wong
Okay. I completely updated the game log, but let me know if you find any mistakes.

###

I made sure that the game log reflected the way that you all typed in the team member names. I also preserved the name orders.

I think that these efforts are important, because it allows any player to read into it as much as he/she desires. This is even more important in this game, since the topic of names and name orders came up in discussions.

None of my efforts reflects an endorsement of any particular player(s). I'm simply allowing you all to read what you will from the text.

The big challenge was typing in the leader name in the heading of each proposal. I wanted to preserve that, too, but I also wanted a consistent name, wherever possible.

###

I still need to update my announcements.

###

From now on, I'll post links in the game log first. This will give a more useful log of what happened. After that, if I have time, I'll make it look pretty.

###

Feel free to make some suggestions on how you want me to mod your game.
John Agre
I am of the mindset that John seems more likely to be the fail from mission 2 based on his position and the lack of off mission voting. Sarah is pointing at me while John is keeping his options open.

I'm not going to say much more than that at this time.

go ahead and propose.. let's see what happens.

Sarah

Jerival wrote:

I am of the mindset that John seems more likely to be the fail from mission 2 based on his position and the lack of off mission voting. Sarah is pointing at me while John is keeping his options open.

I'm not going to say much more than that at this time.

go ahead and propose.. let's see what happens.



My main ping on you is that people are.. 'critiquing' my style and I've said my style here is much like my style in werewolf. And you're the only person familiar with that, so I felt like if you were a rebel you would have 'vouched' for that or at least wanted to make sure spies weren't throwing invalid dirt on me.
John X

Jerival wrote:

I am of the mindset that John seems more likely to be the fail from mission 2 based on his position and the lack of off mission voting. Sarah is pointing at me while John is keeping his options open.

I'm not going to say much more than that at this time.

go ahead and propose.. let's see what happens.


I didn't know I've been particularly subtle but this is the second time someone I've been calling a spy has said I wasn't, which doesn't often happen.

I haven't really harped on it I guess, but voting for me + Sarah is pretty clearly pointing the finger at you. My bad if I didn't make that clear enough I guess.
Kaitlyn Smith
M3.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Jerival, Kaitlyn

(sorry, couldn't resist, Sarah)

Voting links: YES/NO
Sarah
Rob, I just had this paranoid thought that Johnorama/Kait are a team. Think that over and let me know what your thoughts are. I know I am all over the place but this one just hit me.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

Rob, I just had this paranoid thought that Johnorama/Kait are a team. Think that over and let me know what your thoughts are. I know I am all over the place but this one just hit me.

If it is, m3 is dirty for sure already. Let's see how m3 goes...
Eugene Wong
Rob, Jerival, and Kait, vote yes.

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission cards!
Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL
Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob, Jerival, and Kait, vote yes.

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission cards!
Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL


shake
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob, Jerival, and Kait, vote yes.

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission cards!
Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL


shake


Really, you can't say this is unexpected, can you? You turn down M3.2 and then call M3.3 with yourself and John X which has a snowball's chance in Hades of getting a third vote, and of course Rob said he was upvoting my M3.4 so can you really claim you didn't see this coming?

On the other hand, I wonder if there was any way for Sarah to be on M3 herself. Let's delve more deeply into the situation.
v
v
v
v

eugenetswong wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Kate, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Oh, look! There WAS a way for Sarah to be on this mission, and even have a res mission mate! I was willing. But sadly, you decided it was better not to be on M3 at all.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit mean here, but I was a bit hurt when you refused M3.2.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob, Jerival, and Kait, vote yes.

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission cards!
Mission Card Links: SUCCEED/FAIL


shake


Really, you can't say this is unexpected, can you? You turn down M3.2 and then call M3.3 with yourself and John X which has a snowball's chance in Hades of getting a third vote, and of course Rob said he was upvoting my M3.4 so can you really claim you didn't see this coming?

On the other hand, I wonder if there was any way for Sarah to be on M3 herself. Let's delve more deeply into the situation.
v
v
v
v

eugenetswong wrote:

Jerival wrote:

M3.2 Jerival: Kait, Sarah

Voting links: YES/NO


Kate, and Jerival, vote yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Oh, look! There WAS a way for Sarah to be on this mission, and even have a res mission mate! I was willing. But sadly, you decided it was better not to be on M3 at all.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit mean here, but I was a bit hurt when you refused M3.2.


It wasn't ever a thought of be on m3 or not. It was wanting to be onit with someone I trusted.

You're quoting a proposal that that either had

A) spy you on it ready to frame me
B) spy jerival proposing it
C) A and B

...
Sarah
And I would have rather sent m1 again since it would be a good mission or I would see if John ducked m1. From your pov jerival is a spy so perhaps YOU should have sent my mission.
Sarah
Nothing he said sounded good. Why did you pick him?? And Rob, are you that sure John is a spy to tell Kait you will vote up whoever???
Sarah
I don't get the rob/kait connection since they both cant be spies but jeez they both seem like it.
John X
I don't think we know what happened with M3 yet Sarah.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

I don't think we know what happened with M3 yet Sarah.


Damnit. Those links get me every time blush
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I don't think we know what happened with M3 yet Sarah.

Oh i get it. I was so confused what she was talking about.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I don't think we know what happened with M3 yet Sarah.

Oh i get it. I was so confused what she was talking about.

Ya it took me a bit.
Eugene Wong
Success fail

M3.4 Proposal By Kait URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27418551#27418551]link to announcement[/url: Jerival; Kaitlyn
M3.4 Vote Record url=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27419071#27419071]link to announcement[/url:

Rob - YES
Jerival - YES
Sarah - no
Kait - YES
Johnorama - no


Mission Results: SUCCESS; fail

Next!
Sarah

eugenetswong wrote:

Success fail



Next!


Okay. Now see my posts
John X
I have to say I'm remarkably disappointed in the choice to bring Jerival. I feel like Rob looked significantly better and I actually believe he was less likely to vote for Jerival + Kait than Jerival was to vote for Kait + Rob.

Either of those teams were going and I have to question Kait's choice to bring the significantly less vocal one.
John X

Johnorama wrote:

I have to say I'm remarkably disappointed in the choice to bring Jerival. I feel like Rob looked significantly better and I actually believe he was less likely to vote for Jerival + Kait than Jerival was to vote for Kait + Rob.

Either of those teams were going and I have to question Kait's choice to bring the significantly less vocal one.

I'm also interested in Sarah thumbing this, I thought you weren't considering John/John spy team?

Unless you are does it really matter to you if it was Kait/Jerival or Kait/Rob?
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I have to say I'm remarkably disappointed in the choice to bring Jerival. I feel like Rob looked significantly better and I actually believe he was less likely to vote for Jerival + Kait than Jerival was to vote for Kait + Rob.

Either of those teams were going and I have to question Kait's choice to bring the significantly less vocal one.

I'm also interested in Sarah thumbing this, I thought you weren't considering John/John spy team?

Unless you are does it really matter to you if it was Kait/Jerival or Kait/Rob?


I was thumbing for lack of understanding for the jerival pick
John X

Johnorama wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

I have to say I'm remarkably disappointed in the choice to bring Jerival. I feel like Rob looked significantly better and I actually believe he was less likely to vote for Jerival + Kait than Jerival was to vote for Kait + Rob.

Either of those teams were going and I have to question Kait's choice to bring the significantly less vocal one.

I'm also interested in Sarah thumbing this, I thought you weren't considering John/John spy team?

Unless you are does it really matter to you if it was Kait/Jerival or Kait/Rob?

Actually I'll backpedal on this a little bit. I wouldn't have been shocked if Kait + Rob was clean and spy-Jerival didn't vote for it.

I think Kait + Rob had a better chance at being clean though and a much better chance of being informative for us in the world where Jerival did downvote. Whether that downvote would be to push it to my dirty hammer or just to push it to my potentially dirty hammer it would still tell us a lot if he suddenly switched his opinion on me. Namely that Kait + Rob was probably clean.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M3.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Jerival, Kaitlyn

(sorry, couldn't resist, Sarah)

Voting links: YES/NO

I have a lot of thoughts right now. But I also know the least, so I unsure of my ability to draw correct conclusions. The only spy-team I can eliminate is Sarah/JohnX. Which is a good one for me, as I need to revaluate Sarah's voting all game.

My first thought when I saw this proposal was that I would have upvoted kait/jerival or kait/john. And john would presumeably have upvoted kait/sarah again. So kait had her pick of m3 except for kait/rob (which was m3.1) which probably would not have been sent. So she picked kait/jerival.
Kaitlyn Smith
I know there are a lot of questions for me here. I'll get around to answering them, but first I'd like to analyze. I plan to analyze from the bystanders' point and will consider cases where I am a spy even though they don't exist in my world.

1. Consider the case where Jerival is res.

M2 failed meaning that Sarah and JohnX have one spy between them. M3 failed meaning that I am a spy, so the spy team is Sarah and me or JohnX and me. Of course, we were headed for a dead M3 anyway since I'm pretty sure JohnX was taking Sarah. If the spy passed, it would be very difficult for the res to find each other in two missions and I would already be chalking up a spy victory.

Let's delve deeper. Why wouldn't I make a pick that guaranteed that JohnX picked, knowing that I have an almost certain victory as a spy whichever of JohnX or Sarah was a spy?

Yes, I know this is evilsplaining and Max would say this is total bullsh*t, but in this case, whouln't I take the almost certain victory without getting blood on my hands rather than put myself in a position where I have to evilsplain? I'm usually pretty good at winning games that are already essentially won.

Let's consider the case where Jerival is a spy but I'm his partner.This is a strong possibility in Sarah's mind since she passed up a chance to go on M3.2 so that she could go with JohnX, who is only a res in her mind if Jerival is my spy buddy.

I can understand why the non-Kait res would think this. After all, there is definitely a spy among Jerival and Kaitlyn, and Jerival offpicked Kaitlyn and Sarah and approved. If Sarah is res, I can see her thinking that Jerival picked his spy buddy. (I can think that also, but I am considering the possibility that Jerival offpicked a clean team hoping that M4 and M5 go in the dumper.)

However, there is an issue here. Let's say that Jerival and Kaitlyn are the two spies. Many on BGG say the proposer fails two-spy missions an many others say that the player who already failed fails the two-spy missions. How on earth would I know which of these camps Jerival is in? I've never played with him. It would be crazy of me to pick Jerival when I'm pretty sure Rob is going to off approve, and he, who doesn't know me, would be pretty crazy to approve also. You will note that this would work a lot better if we both pass M3 as spies and then Jerival tubes M4 that someone else picks on the basis that he already failed. (Note that it costs me nothing to talk about coordination as a res here since the next fail loses the game so all spies will fail.) But that didn't happen. M3 failed. I hope that it's a logical conclusion that there was only one spy aboard.

So if Kaitlyn isn't Jerival's spy partner, who is?

Anybody could be. Rob could have deflected the res from running the table with his offer to steal JohnX's hammer. The spy among Sarah and JohnX could also be very happy with the situation of possibly unwarranted mutual trust between the two of them.

OK, I'll answer one question. Sarah asked why I would take Jerival?

Before M3.4, I have absolutely no idea who the res are. Being a res myself, I figured I had a 50-50 chance of a clean M3 if I'm on it but only a 1 in 6 chance if I'm not on it. Sarah had already refused me so there was no point in picking her. JohnX would let it drop to hammer, and also I was his last choice, so there was no point in picking him. Jerival didn't offer me an upvote if I picked Rob. In retrospect, if I did pick Rob and Jerival didn't approve, it would have been damning. However, I know nothing about Jerival's skill level, and it's possible from my POV that he's a beginner that wouldn't work out that it's damning for him not to approve, and I'd be left with the M3.5 of Sarah and John which would give me absolutely no information, and even if they were the two res, it was pretty unlikely that I was going with them on M4, and I'd probably be seduced into going with one of the spies on M5 rather than approving with John and Sarah who have both shunned me all game.

So the only way I could get on M3 was to take Jerival. He could have been res from my POV. It turns out that he wasn't. Having taken him, I'm glad he failed, because I think it should be easier to find the res team despite only being given one shot.

However, the hammer being in res hands is going to be quite useful here. For I could forsee a world in which JohnX and Sarah both would only approve if the team was exactly Rob, JohnX, and Sarah, which would suit the spy among those three just fine. Assuming Rob isn't the spy, he can stop that team from going through, unless Jerival off approves it. That is my largest fear now - that JohnX and Sarah have one spy among them but will still remained glued together, and Jerival's vote will send a failing mission.

Of course I am still willing to consider the case where Jerival's teammate is Rob. That's not at the top of my thinking now but things could change based on the conversation going forward.

Rob W
It is interesting to revaluate the votes/proposals knowing that at least one of Sarah/JohnX is RES. John, having hammer only upvotes twice. M1.3 and m3.3, which are Sarah/JohnX.

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.

Something else I noticed, which probably everyone has, is that I can only be a spy with Jerival. But Jerival could be a spy with anyone. And that res-Jerival knows I am 100% RES.

So rob/kait, rob/sarah, and rob/johnx have all been eliminated. Which kind of suprises me that m3 wasn't floated, except that I also approved it which is now shady.

Next thought: unrelated, but I just had it, probably the most dangerous spyteam right now is kait/jerival, based on the m4 voting order. M4 is the game folks. Both teams have this one shot. Whoever wins it, wins the game. A kait/jerival team would make sense with the way jerival and kait voted in m3. Both trying to give each other the m4 hammer. I am not sure it is the most likely, but it probably is the most dangerous. I suppose sarah/kait is actually worse since they have m4.4 and m4.5. So, I take it all back except kait/jerival might be a more likely team...
Rob W
I cross posted with kait, so i apologize if i repeated things she said. Now to go read it...
Kaitlyn Smith

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

M3.4 Kaitlyn_Res: Jerival, Kaitlyn

(sorry, couldn't resist, Sarah)

Voting links: YES/NO

I have a lot of thoughts right now. But I also know the least, so I unsure of my ability to draw correct conclusions. The only spy-team I can eliminate is Sarah/JohnX. Which is a good one for me, as I need to revaluate Sarah's voting all game.

My first thought when I saw this proposal was that I would have upvoted kait/jerival or kait/john. And john would presumeably have upvoted kait/sarah again. So kait had her pick of m3 except for kait/rob (which was m3.1) which probably would not have been sent. So she picked kait/jerival.
I cross posted with this. I honestly thought that either Sarah or JohnX would decline if I chose them. You would approve if I picked you but I had no idea where the third vote was coming from. That would probably have been my first choice if I thought someone would upvote it. If you are res, Jerival wouldn't have sent it, and both Sarah and JohnX were content with M3.5 which was broadcast to be the two of them.
Kaitlyn Smith

rwright wrote:

It is interesting to revaluate the votes/proposals knowing that at least one of Sarah/JohnX is RES. John, having hammer only upvotes twice. M1.3 and m3.3, which are Sarah/JohnX.
Yeah, it would have been a lot easier if your theory about them being double spy was true. At least one of them being res is tougher for me considering the lack of trust I got from either of them in M3 which I assume hasn't been alleviated by what just transpired.

rwright wrote:

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.
Rob, are you saying that you trust Sarah a lot more than JohnX?

rwright wrote:

Something else I noticed, which probably everyone has, is that I can only be a spy with Jerival. But Jerival could be a spy with anyone. And that res-Jerival knows I am 100% RES.
All true.

rwright wrote:

So rob/kait, rob/sarah, and rob/johnx have all been eliminated. Which kind of suprises me that m3 wasn't floated, except that I also approved it which is now shady.
I'm also surprised that Jer didn't float M3 which I think puts his spyteam in a strong position. BTW, I don't think you're any more shady because you approved it; that's normal Rob play. Actually, it wouldn't have shocked me if you rejected after "promising" an approve so the fact that you approved it makes you look better to me.

rwright wrote:

Next thought: unrelated, but I just had it, probably the most dangerous spyteam right now is kait/jerival, based on the m4 voting order. M4 is the game folks. Both teams have this one shot. Whoever wins it, wins the game. A kait/jerival team would make sense with the way jerival and kait voted in m3. Both trying to give each other the m4 hammer. I am not sure it is the most likely, but it probably is the most dangerous. I suppose sarah/kait is actually worse since they have m4.4 and m4.5. So, I take it all back except kait/jerival might be a more likely team...
If you decide that this is the team, I have no doubt that you will get Sarah and JohnX on board. The two res of those will lose the game, and once that happens, I will honestly be looking to the other two res to ask what I could have done differently to give us a chance. For I can see losing because I guess wrong in M4. But if I lose M4 because I don't even get on, then there are some serious flaws in my resistance game that need to be fixed.
Rob W
@ Kait

Read the post. I see your point about the m3.4 proposal. I doubt johnX approves johnx/kait. I would have, but that probably doesn't cut it.

Sarah/kait might have gone. Especially because (it seemed to me) that johnx was signalling that he would send johnx/rob on m3.5. Maybe Sarah sees this and approves sarah/kait on m3.4. It does make sense that m3.4 is likeliest approved when voted on by all 3 members off of m1. We have all been shunned there and want to try to get control of the game.

As far as rob/jerival spy team goes, (which is the only spy-rob team) I will evilsplain some and ask, why would I want to move the hammer? It's not much of an explanation but spy-rob doesn't care about that. I can't remember how you said it, but I intrepreted it that spy-rob would care about m4 hammer.

Res-rob wanted to move the hammer because you were my best rebel read and if we leave it on johnx all game, we lose 100% if he is spy. As a res who knows nothing, I have to try to control the game as best I can. Sitting in the #1 chair is tough. No one will off-approve and I will likely never have hammer. The best I can do is choose who does. That is like the only influence I can have on this game aside from pitching in a SUCCESS when I go on a mission (which has been none).
Rob W
I am not going to eliminate the kait/jerival team because you guys might not have been able to coordinate. For spy-kait, it was worth the risk to get the m4 hammer away from res-johnx. And like you said, kait/jerival is the likliest m3.4 to have been approved.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:


rwright wrote:

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.
Rob, are you saying that you trust Sarah a lot more than JohnX?

No. I meant cleaner than she did. The Sarah/JohnX connection was strong. So now her voting looks more like an overly cautious rebel than a worried-spy. It still could be spy-sarah, but now for less reasons and less likelihood.

kait wrote:


rwright wrote:

Next thought: unrelated, but I just had it, probably the most dangerous spyteam right now is kait/jerival, based on the m4 voting order. M4 is the game folks. Both teams have this one shot. Whoever wins it, wins the game. A kait/jerival team would make sense with the way jerival and kait voted in m3. Both trying to give each other the m4 hammer. I am not sure it is the most likely, but it probably is the most dangerous. I suppose sarah/kait is actually worse since they have m4.4 and m4.5. So, I take it all back except kait/jerival might be a more likely team...
If you decide that this is the team, I have no doubt that you will get Sarah and JohnX on board. The two res of those will lose the game, and once that happens, I will honestly be looking to the other two res to ask what I could have done differently to give us a chance. For I can see losing because I guess wrong in M4. But if I lose M4 because I don't even get on, then there are some serious flaws in my resistance game that need to be fixed.

Well, we would feel pretty goofed too if the spyteam was kait/jerival and we decided not to press it so you wouldn't have flaws to fix.
Rob W
I have this nagging feeling that we should keep our preferred teams "close to our chest." Meaning we shouldn't all come out and say it. We don't want the spies to know when an off-mission upvote will win the game with a dirty proposal. We cannot let them know that.

That's why I am being a little coy with Kait. I don't want people to know exactly what I think.
John X

rwright wrote:

I have this nagging feeling that we should keep our preferred teams "close to our chest." Meaning we shouldn't all come out and say it. We don't want the spies to know when an off-mission upvote will win the game with a dirty proposal. We cannot let them know that.

That's why I am being a little coy with Kait. I don't want people to know exactly what I think.

Eh, I plan on being vocal with my preferred team.

Once I know what it is.
Kaitlyn Smith

rwright wrote:

I have this nagging feeling that we should keep our preferred teams "close to our chest." Meaning we shouldn't all come out and say it. We don't want the spies to know when an off-mission upvote will win the game with a dirty proposal. We cannot let them know that.

That's why I am being a little coy with Kait. I don't want people to know exactly what I think.
I think that's an excellent idea. While I think it's healthy to discuss who the res and the spies are, I also think we should keep our voting intentions hidden.
Sarah
When reading all of this I have to remind myself that two of you are spies and not be frustrated.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

It is interesting to revaluate the votes/proposals knowing that at least one of Sarah/JohnX is RES. John, having hammer only upvotes twice. M1.3 and m3.3, which are Sarah/JohnX.

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.

Something else I noticed, which probably everyone has, is that I can only be a spy with Jerival. But Jerival could be a spy with anyone. And that res-Jerival knows I am 100% RES.

So rob/kait, rob/sarah, and rob/johnx have all been eliminated. Which kind of suprises me that m3 wasn't floated, except that I also approved it which is now shady.

Next thought: unrelated, but I just had it, probably the most dangerous spyteam right now is kait/jerival, based on the m4 voting order. M4 is the game folks. Both teams have this one shot. Whoever wins it, wins the game. A kait/jerival team would make sense with the way jerival and kait voted in m3. Both trying to give each other the m4 hammer. I am not sure it is the most likely, but it probably is the most dangerous. I suppose sarah/kait is actually worse since they have m4.4 and m4.5. So, I take it all back except kait/jerival might be a more likely team...


I was thinking earlier that you have been so concerned about the hammer. It comes across as you being a spy who is annoyed that rebel-John has the hammer. The problem is in rebel-John world, Jerival is a spy-- so, your voting would have then given rebel-Kait the hammer.
Sarah
It's kind of cool how our styles are so different. I find it pretty odd that Kait and Rob are discussing "all options", even ones where they are the spy. Maybe this is normal in Resistance but it's not something I am used to. In theory you can argue it would be helpful to give the bystander view but I find it awkward. I know at least one of you is a rebel and I am trying to find you.

Kait, if that is you then you have to explain to be how Jerival is a spy and who he is with-- and how that fits into the context or Rob's voting or John's voting.
Sarah
I want to ask things about prior games but I feel like you're all just going to tell me never to consider them.

I'm going to do it anyway. If you don't want to answer then fine but I think this would be helpful.

How likely are either John, Jerival, or Kait to bring a co-spy on a mission? I know some people really avoid this, others love doing it and there's a lot of in between.
Sarah
Jerival didn't really do anything to make me think he was a rebel so I don't understand taking him over John or I. This makes me think that Kait is a spy wanting a "dichotomy" with Jerival. I see nothing pointing toward him being the rebel. If anything you saw m1 go with John and I and pass. Taking John or I or even Rob would make more sense. I think Jerival proposed the Sarah/Kait mission so Kait could fail it on me.
Sarah
Johnorama is a good player so I wouldn't put anything past him but with my reads of jerival/kait/rob in this situation I don't foresee there being a team I will ever vote for without him and I on it. John, if you are a spy I can imagine your evil cackle upon hearing that. My gut now says that it should be Sarah/Johnorama/Rob or an outside chance of Sarah/Johnorama/Kait.
Sarah
Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

I was thinking earlier that you have been so concerned about the hammer. It comes across as you being a spy who is annoyed that rebel-John has the hammer. The problem is in rebel-John world, Jerival is a spy-- so, your voting would have then given rebel-Kait the hammer.
It really seems to me that Rob moved the hammer exactly for the reason he said. Yes, it could be to fool me into picking a spy and going down 2-1 with lots of doubt going forward. However, it makes a lot more sense that he moved it as a res.

If you're res, the third res has to be Rob or JohnX.

Of course, I realize that you have to contend with the possibility that both of them are res, or that JohnX and I are a spy team. I hope you don't come to that conclusion.

I can evilsplain each of those. If I'm spy with Jer, I have a much stronger play of picking Rob which Jer has to approve. I think my best play would be to float that and it would be tough for Rob not to want me in future missions.

If I'm spy with John, I have a far stronger play letting him hammer forever, especially with the trust he has from you.

I'd like to think that the other players respect me enough that they think I'm going to take my strongest action when an obvious stronger action exists.

I am certainly willing to listen to anything you might have done differently as a spy (although I'm not buying "failing M1" because I think you're a good enough player to float either M1 or M3.) This game would be a lot easier if I didn't respect the talent of the other players. I don't know Jer but you, JohnX, and Rob have proven to be top-notch competitors.
Sarah
Johnorama- why did you vote my m2 proposal of: Sarah, John, John down and then re-propose it.. and when re-proposing it you changed the order. I proposed it in that manner to ruin any coordination if you both were spies. Your moving the order would have easily allowed coordination. If you wanted to show you weren't a spy with Jerival then I don't know why you didn't use my same order..
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I was thinking earlier that you have been so concerned about the hammer. It comes across as you being a spy who is annoyed that rebel-John has the hammer. The problem is in rebel-John world, Jerival is a spy-- so, your voting would have then given rebel-Kait the hammer.
It really seems to me that Rob moved the hammer exactly for the reason he said. Yes, it could be to fool me into picking a spy and going down 2-1 with lots of doubt going forward. However, it makes a lot more sense that he moved it as a res.

If you're res, the third res has to be Rob or JohnX.

Of course, I realize that you have to contend with the possibility that both of them are res, or that JohnX and I are a spy team. I hope you don't come to that conclusion.

I can evilsplain each of those. [BGCOLOR=#00CC00]If I'm spy with Jer, I have a much stronger play of picking Rob which Jer has to approve. I think my best play would be to float that and it would be tough for Rob not to want me in future missions.[/BGCOLOR]

If I'm spy with John, I have a far stronger play letting him hammer forever, especially with the trust he has from you.

I'd like to think that the other players respect me enough that they think I'm going to take my strongest action when an obvious stronger action exists.

I am certainly willing to listen to anything you might have done differently as a spy (although I'm not buying "failing M1" because I think you're a good enough player to float either M1 or M3.) This game would be a lot easier if I didn't respect the talent of the other players. I don't know Jer but you, JohnX, and Rob have proven to be top-notch competitors.


I don't agree with the highlighted part. If you and Jerival are spies I think you attempt to create a dichotomy.

And I seriously still would have failed m1. You can believe me or not but the more we play together you will see. It is how I play in person and online and a chance to frame Johnorma? I would not be able to resist that (no offense John ). You can argue evilsplaing or whatever but given I am a rebel it isn't that. It's why I ask about how often people take spy-buddies. Yeah, there may be occasions you break the 'rules' but everyone still has a general baseline and I am trying to figure out where those are. Some people like failing missions as spies, some like ducking and playing the long game.

As a clarification I use the argument that I fail m1 as a spy because it really is true the vast majority of the time. Playing this way can be rewarding and also very risky. It's rewarding in that as people play with me they can see that this is true about me and when I am a rebel I can try to find my fellow rebels a lot easier. The huge risk of this playstyle is that people know I do this so it's a great opportunity for a spy to try to get on m1 with me and frame me. It happens in person a lot and it makes the game an uphill battle for me since I am known for failing it. Obviously if I am a spy and fail it I use the argument of "people know I fail it, X player set me up!!". Players will constantly adapt their games but I think a lot of players still hold true to certain playstyles. I could be "changing it up" this game but why? At the expensive of giving up one of my core Resistance attributes so I could be undermined in future games When I argue this? Not worth it. Sorry, that was a tangent-- I have strong views about failing m1.

I know people play differently. I was in the Resistance World Championship (that sounds a lot more fancy than it was) at Gen Con last year and I saw a lot of different styles. In one six player game, my spy buddy got on the first two missions and passed it. I was shocked when the cards flipped and then had to propose next (after the m2 pass). It ended up working out as I awkwardly talked about how we should totally send a different mission but the point being we all have different playstyles. I'm only learning your guys' styles and trying to explain one way that when you're a rebel you can find rebel me (or when you're a spy how you can set me up ).
Sarah
I also use a lot of smileys, totally not alignment indicative.. whistle
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

I want to ask things about prior games but I feel like you're all just going to tell me never to consider them.

I'm going to do it anyway. If you don't want to answer then fine but I think this would be helpful.

How likely are either John, Jerival, or Kait to bring a co-spy on a mission? I know some people really avoid this, others love doing it and there's a lot of in between.

I guess you are asking me???
If so, I would say that JohnX and Kait are good enough that they wouldn't think twice to do it or not do it, whichever they think will be advantageous. I haven't played with Jerival enough to know.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's kind of cool how our styles are so different. I find it pretty odd that Kait and Rob are discussing "all options", even ones where they are the spy. Maybe this is normal in Resistance but it's not something I am used to. In theory you can argue it would be helpful to give the bystander view but I find it awkward. I know at least one of you is a rebel and I am trying to find you.

Kait, if that is you then you have to explain to be how Jerival is a spy and who he is with-- and how that fits into the context or Rob's voting or John's voting.

Ya. That's kind of funny. I just want to make sure my res-mates think clearly about me. You can only consider me as a spy on one team. I mean, in some ways it helps and in other ways hurts. But, in the end, it is the truth whether I say it or not. So I say it, in case a teammate missed it.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama- why did you vote my m2 proposal of: Sarah, John, John down and then re-propose it.. and when re-proposing it you changed the order. I proposed it in that manner to ruin any coordination if you both were spies. Your moving the order would have easily allowed coordination. If you wanted to show you weren't a spy with Jerival then I don't know why you didn't use my same order..

Do I seriously have to answer this question again?
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I want to ask things about prior games but I feel like you're all just going to tell me never to consider them.

I'm going to do it anyway. If you don't want to answer then fine but I think this would be helpful.

How likely are either John, Jerival, or Kait to bring a co-spy on a mission? I know some people really avoid this, others love doing it and there's a lot of in between.

I guess you are asking me???
If so, I would say that JohnX and Kait are good enough that they wouldn't think twice to do it or not do it, whichever they think will be advantageous. I haven't played with Jerival enough to know.


For some reason I feel like Jerival wouldn't. Jerival voted up my Sarah/John/John thing which could mean:

a) he's a spy and was fine with it if Johnorama is good
b) Johnorama isn't a spy so he was the only one on the mission

I don't really see a Jerival/John team. It doesn't feel right. So, most worlds include a spy-Kait.

Kait/Jerival
Kait/John

Your tone is feeling good to me and you've said some things that have pinged me but things I wouldn't imagine you saying if you were a spy. I know I don't really know you or your play style but I feel like you've done outwardly spy things that make me think you're not a spy-- if that makes sense. IF you're not a spy then oh please let's get on the same page. Let me know what you think of my team ideas. Maybe it is Jerival/John I just have a harder time seeing that.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama- why did you vote my m2 proposal of: Sarah, John, John down and then re-propose it.. and when re-proposing it you changed the order. I proposed it in that manner to ruin any coordination if you both were spies. Your moving the order would have easily allowed coordination. If you wanted to show you weren't a spy with Jerival then I don't know why you didn't use my same order..

Do I seriously have to answer this question again?


I might be talking out loud. I've now talked myself into thinking you two aren't co-spies at least.. does that help?
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

It's kind of cool how our styles are so different. I find it pretty odd that Kait and Rob are discussing "all options", even ones where they are the spy. Maybe this is normal in Resistance but it's not something I am used to. In theory you can argue it would be helpful to give the bystander view but I find it awkward. I know at least one of you is a rebel and I am trying to find you.

Kait, if that is you then you have to explain to be how Jerival is a spy and who he is with-- and how that fits into the context or Rob's voting or John's voting.

Ya. That's kind of funny. I just want to make sure my res-mates think clearly about me. You can only consider me as a spy on one team. I mean, in some ways it helps and in other ways hurts. But, in the end, it is the truth whether I say it or not. So I say it, in case a teammate missed it.


I was more pinged by Kait's analysis. Sure, she could be a rebel but my initial response coming back from a 2 person mission that failed would be to go off on how Jerival is a dirty, dirty spy. It wouldn't be for me to try to look good. I'd have to look at her posts in games but it felt like she was trying to seem good in the process. It does ping me to wonder if she didn't quite want to slime Jerival if it was spy/spy..
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.


I just needed some wining and dining!

So, Jerival was your 4th pick? Why was John your most likely spy candidate? What did he specifically do that made you think he was a spy. I know you mentioned how he had hammer so he probably wouldn't vote for your mission but beyond that-- why no Johnorama?
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

I was more pinged by Kait's analysis. Sure, she could be a rebel but my initial response coming back from a 2 person mission that failed would be to go off on how Jerival is a dirty, dirty spy. It wouldn't be for me to try to look good. I'd have to look at her posts in games but it felt like she was trying to seem good in the process. It does ping me to wonder if she didn't quite want to slime Jerival if it was spy/spy..

JERIVAL IS A SPY!Is that better?

What the hell, Sarah? Me saying Jerival is a spy is like saying nothing.

He's gonna say I'm a spy too. He has to.

Rather than saying nothing, why shouldn't I say something? Like why I'm less likely to be a spy than Jerival? Like why I'm not likely to be a spy with Jerival? Does this not make more sense?

Really, you are really trying hard to make me think you are one of the spies now. It's like you are really scared that people might pick me for M4. I know that I'd like to hide my voting intentions, but there's a huge case for the res team of Rob, John X, and Kaitlyn - and that huge case is simply that you've been trying all game to make me look bad to the other players!
John X
I don't have the time right now to type a bunch but I am curious who people thought I was taking.

I guess I keep projecting my thoughts onto other people but I really thought it was pretty obvious I wanted to bring Rob on my mission, not Sarah. I'm curious if anyone else thought I was going that way or if I'm way more subtle than I thought.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I was more pinged by Kait's analysis. Sure, she could be a rebel but my initial response coming back from a 2 person mission that failed would be to go off on how Jerival is a dirty, dirty spy. It wouldn't be for me to try to look good. I'd have to look at her posts in games but it felt like she was trying to seem good in the process. It does ping me to wonder if she didn't quite want to slime Jerival if it was spy/spy..

JERIVAL IS A SPY!Is that better?

What the hell, Sarah? Me saying Jerival is a spy is like saying nothing.

He's gonna say I'm a spy too. He has to.

Rather than saying nothing, why shouldn't I say something? Like why I'm less likely to be a spy than Jerival? Like why I'm not likely to be a spy with Jerival? Does this not make more sense?

Really, you are really trying hard to make me think you are one of the spies now. It's like you are really scared that people might pick me for M4. I know that I'd like to hide my voting intentions, but there's a huge case for the res team of Rob, John X, and Kaitlyn - and that huge case is simply that you've been trying all game to make me look bad to the other players!


I play Werewolf 99% of the time so maybe I am rusty on this. It felt like you were posting just general analysis as opposed to if you are are a rebel.. coming on here and being like "okay, Jerival is a spy-- so, now what?" then thinking about his partner, voting, etc.

I don't want to argue about it. It's just something that pinged me. Maybe you do this as rebel and spy and I will get used to it but right now it pings me as spy-ish.
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

I don't have the time right now to type a bunch but I am curious who people thought I was taking.

I guess I keep projecting my thoughts onto other people but I really thought it was pretty obvious I wanted to bring Rob on my mission, not Sarah. I'm curious if anyone else thought I was going that way or if I'm way more subtle than I thought.


cry
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:


I just needed some wining and dining!

So, Jerival was your 4th pick? Why was John your most likely spy candidate? What did he specifically do that made you think he was a spy. I know you mentioned how he had hammer so he probably wouldn't vote for your mission but beyond that-- why no Johnorama?
I'll answer not because I think you're res but because I want the res to know that I'm willing to lay my cards on the table.

I didn't take Johnorama for the same reason I didn't take you - I expected that Johnorama didn't want any part of a mission with me at the time. He was hammer for goodness sake! He could just refuse me and pick his favorite choice. He made it pretty clear that his favorite wasn't me.

So again, why are you insisting that I should pick somebody that is going to reject me?

From my POV, Jerival was close to 50% res and he was pretty likely to approve!

Let me pose this to you - you have a choice of going on a 2-player mission or of not going and letting someone else pick the mission who isn't going to pick you. Which would you choose?
Kaitlyn Smith
I have to admit - this game just got a lot more fun

It felt like going through the motions up until M2. The conversation has got pretty lively now though!
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:


I just needed some wining and dining!

So, Jerival was your 4th pick? Why was John your most likely spy candidate? What did he specifically do that made you think he was a spy. I know you mentioned how he had hammer so he probably wouldn't vote for your mission but beyond that-- why no Johnorama?
I'll answer not because I think you're res but because I want the res to know that I'm willing to lay my cards on the table.

I didn't take Johnorama for the same reason I didn't take you - I expected that Johnorama didn't want any part of a mission with me at the time. He was hammer for goodness sake! He could just refuse me and pick his favorite choice. He made it pretty clear that his favorite wasn't me.

So again, why are you insisting that I should pick somebody that is going to reject me?

From my POV, Jerival was close to 50% res and he was pretty likely to approve!

Let me pose this to you - you have a choice of going on a 2-player mission or of not going and letting someone else pick the mission who isn't going to pick you. Which would you choose?


Why was he close to 50% rebel? I don't see any data points pointing at that. If anything, calculating the m1 passes and his involvement/hunting I would put him at lower than that.

To your question, it would depend on who was picking. I trust(ed?) John and do think John/Rob sounds a lot better of a mission although I would have hoped he would have picked me. Actually.. a thought on this I want to hold until I ask John this.

John, why did you want to take Rob?
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

I don't have the time right now to type a bunch but I am curious who people thought I was taking.

I guess I keep projecting my thoughts onto other people but I really thought it was pretty obvious I wanted to bring Rob on my mission, not Sarah. I'm curious if anyone else thought I was going that way or if I'm way more subtle than I thought.
Clearly I thought you were taking Sarah. I would have been less unhappy about a 3.5 with you and Rob. However, as a res, I still would have preferred me and anybody since you all were still close to 50% for me.
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

Why was he close to 50% rebel? I don't see any data points pointing at that. If anything, calculating the m1 passes and his involvement/hunting I would put him at lower than that.


He was close to 50% rebel because the rest of you are capable of being very clever spies. Any one of you is almost equally likely to be a rebel or a spy. So M1 passed. Would M1 pass if you were both spies? Almost certainly. And the probability of you both being dealt res cards or both being dealt spy cards is the same.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Why was he close to 50% rebel? I don't see any data points pointing at that. If anything, calculating the m1 passes and his involvement/hunting I would put him at lower than that.


He was close to 50% rebel because the rest of you are capable of being very clever spies. Any one of you is almost equally likely to be a rebel or a spy. So M1 passed. Would M1 pass if you were both spies? Almost certainly. And the probability of you both being dealt res cards or both being dealt spy cards is the same.


Why would m1 have passed if we were both spies? Do I have to cite my policy on m1. If I was a spy with Johnorama that is 100000% more reason for me to fail m1. I would have had a conditional fail in on that, failing a 2 person mission with both spies on it is one of the best things about Resistance (yeah, maybe I am a weirdo ).
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

I also use a lot of smileys, totally not alignment indicative.. whistle

There is a Rob-post. I love it. Totally making a suspicion filled moment even more tense!
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

Don't let your significant other (if applicable) read this! Lol
John Agre
This is sad and hilarious simultaneously..

Kaitlyn is the spy..

Better start entertaining the notion that I was just majorly setup or this game is over..
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

The Resistance counter-argument is that if you don't go when you can, you miss out entirely. See Sarah. Which is why, as a res, I think hard about downvoting on mission. So I find it pingy from others.
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

The Resistance counter-argument is that if you don't go when you can, you miss out entirely. See Sarah. Which is why, as a res, I think hard about downvoting on mission. So I find it pingy from others.


I think it depends on who you are evaluating. I think I am a lot more likely to vote things up as a spy, when I am a rebel I am super paranoid of being framed. Kait sounds a little better now but maybe it's just emotion tugging at me. I'm trying to put myself in a mindset of seeing a John/Jerival team but it's hard for me to see that.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

I don't have the time right now to type a bunch but I am curious who people thought I was taking.

I guess I keep projecting my thoughts onto other people but I really thought it was pretty obvious I wanted to bring Rob on my mission, not Sarah. I'm curious if anyone else thought I was going that way or if I'm way more subtle than I thought.

I caught it. I posted it above in one of my posts. Thanks for confirming though.

It scared me off some. I knew if I downvoted Kait's mission, I might go on m3. But I took a gamble that Kait was RES and would pick correctly. It seemed more likely (at the time) to help out the RES team. And if I downvoted Kait's, you brought me and failed m3, and Kait is RES, Kait and I would never find each other and it would be game-over. Seeing as how Kait was my best read, it sounded like a bad idea.

So I concluded that spy-JohnX was a desperate effort to keep my from voting for m3.4.
John X
Alright I'm pretty talkable for the next while, it'll take some time to address everything I want to though so bear with me I guess. I actually had a post that I was typing up earlier in the afternoon that was basically me coming up with questions for different teams that was scrapped because it wasn't really relevant anymore as people started answering some questions I had.

Anyway, first up is Kait and her giant post is the first thing I want to address. I'm doing a pseudo time-warp so even though I've skimmed things in the future I didn't read very closely and maybe this has already been asked or brought up.

First this:
Let's consider the case where Jerival is a spy but I'm his partner. This is a strong possibility in Sarah's mind since she passed up a chance to go on M3.2 so that she could go with JohnX, who is only a res in her mind if Jerival is my spy buddy.

I might just not be following your possibilities closely, but why can't Sarah think spies are Jerival + Rob? I'm assuming you're not ignoring that I just didn't follow why this world is the most likely if Jerival's a spy to her.

Next, I don't totally buy your arguments about double-spy M3. I agree the coordination is hard and I agree that you would think it's hard. I don't think there's a world where you fail double-spy M3... But I do think there's a world where you propose double-spy M3 and pass it and Jerival can reason that you're going to pass it because it's scary and risks failing it himself. It's high risk high reward but I have already called out that spy team as possible and I can see him feeling the need to make something happen to get people off the scent. Your talk of "wouldn't it be better if we passed then blah blah" is exactly what I think you'd be going for in that world and would be able to use as a defense if Jerival went for the gutsy play.
John X

rwright wrote:

It is interesting to revaluate the votes/proposals knowing that at least one of Sarah/JohnX is RES. John, having hammer only upvotes twice. M1.3 and m3.3, which are Sarah/JohnX.

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.

Something else I noticed, which probably everyone has, is that I can only be a spy with Jerival. But Jerival could be a spy with anyone. And that res-Jerival knows I am 100% RES.

One: your insistence on only looking at votes is bothering me, and maybe you've always had it but it feels very disingenuous to me this game. I worry it's just you deciding to make your fake rebel life easier by eliminating variables you need to worry about.

rwright wrote:

So rob/kait, rob/sarah, and rob/johnx have all been eliminated. Which kind of suprises me that m3 wasn't floated, except that I also approved it which is now shady.

I would have been surprised if it passed. We both knew it was dirty once we see Sarah talk the way she was. If she's a spy and knows either of us is a spy with her then I don't believe she makes up misreading the results, and I don't believe she just goes along with the results that can't possibly happen. I think a spy passing after seeing that is giving away too much info to the rebels (although I'm sure you'd ignore it because it's not a vote).

Maybe votes would have been submitted before they could have even read Sarah's stuff but if they weren't then passing that mission would be a serious blunder.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

I want to ask things about prior games but I feel like you're all just going to tell me never to consider them.

I'm going to do it anyway. If you don't want to answer then fine but I think this would be helpful.

How likely are either John, Jerival, or Kait to bring a co-spy on a mission? I know some people really avoid this, others love doing it and there's a lot of in between.

Don't know enough about Jerival, don't think Kait would be particularly scared, and I don't know if you even want an opinion on me but I like to think I ignore who's spies and just bring whoever res-John would. Or more accurately whatever spy-John thinks res-John would be doing. Maybe they wouldn't line up, I don't know.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Johnorama- why did you vote my m2 proposal of: Sarah, John, John down and then re-propose it.. and when re-proposing it you changed the order. I proposed it in that manner to ruin any coordination if you both were spies. Your moving the order would have easily allowed coordination. If you wanted to show you weren't a spy with Jerival then I don't know why you didn't use my same order..

Now that I have a bit more time do this again, let's do it again.

First: I didn't even notice your coordination funny business when it was proposed. After you mentioned it I said something to the effect of "oh I like it and wish I accepted it, I'm sad I can't do the same thing". That was true, I would have given up my hammer mainly because it was interesting but it did also give rebels more information or potentially made spy lives harder.

Now, after having rejected it but seeing both of your upvotes I decided that I still wanted that team to go. You clearly think I should have proposed it the same way again but that solves nothing. I'm clearly the leader, I think it was pretty clear I'd fail. Me>Jerival, Me>Sarah, Sarah>Jerival seemed like a pretty straight-forward failing scheme that I expected everyone would know had I proposed Sarah, John, John.

The next best thing I could do was try to make it ambiguous between you two, because I didn't feel anything I did with my name would change that I'd be expected to fail. Now I'll be (and probably was) the first to admit my chance of success was low, but the best way I saw to do that was to go John, Sarah, John. Sarah at the back would be Jerival's fail, Sarah at the front would be yours, but maybe with you in the middle it's unclear if it's Johnorama/Sarah/Jerival or Jerival/Sarah/Johnorama.

If it even could have worked it clearly didn't, but I really don't get why this is the 3rd time you've asked about it and I believe the 3rd time I've answered.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

It's a problem to me that your priority is sending a mission rather than proposing a clean one.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

... So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

Also, Jerival had pretty much just called me a spy. Presumably he doesn't love me having the hammer. It would have told us a heck of a lot if he was willing to let me hammer there.

I really don't understand how it's so cemented that Jerival couldn't have voted for Kaitlyn + Rob. It worries me because it makes me feel like picking Jerival was for unsaid reasons (like getting more spies trusted or creating the dichotomy if Jerival fails).
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

I was more pinged by Kait's analysis. Sure, she could be a rebel but my initial response coming back from a 2 person mission that failed would be to go off on how Jerival is a dirty, dirty spy. It wouldn't be for me to try to look good. I'd have to look at her posts in games but it felt like she was trying to seem good in the process. It does ping me to wonder if she didn't quite want to slime Jerival if it was spy/spy..

JERIVAL IS A SPY!Is that better?

What the hell, Sarah? Me saying Jerival is a spy is like saying nothing.

He's gonna say I'm a spy too. He has to.

Rather than saying nothing, why shouldn't I say something? Like why I'm less likely to be a spy than Jerival? Like why I'm not likely to be a spy with Jerival? Does this not make more sense?

Really, you are really trying hard to make me think you are one of the spies now. It's like you are really scared that people might pick me for M4. I know that I'd like to hide my voting intentions, but there's a huge case for the res team of Rob, John X, and Kaitlyn - and that huge case is simply that you've been trying all game to make me look bad to the other players!

I agree with Kaitlyn here, I'm not particularly interested in hearing how much Jerival/Kait is a spy from Kait/Jerival. I want more useful information and analysis.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

It is interesting to revaluate the votes/proposals knowing that at least one of Sarah/JohnX is RES. John, having hammer only upvotes twice. M1.3 and m3.3, which are Sarah/JohnX.

Sarah's votes still look weird, mostly pointing to a Sarah/Kait spyteam (for fear of coordination) but since Sarah/JohnX is not the spyteam, Sarah looks a lot cleaner.

Something else I noticed, which probably everyone has, is that I can only be a spy with Jerival. But Jerival could be a spy with anyone. And that res-Jerival knows I am 100% RES.

One: your insistence on only looking at votes is bothering me, and maybe you've always had it but it feels very disingenuous to me this game. I worry it's just you deciding to make your fake rebel life easier by eliminating variables you need to worry about.

What other variables should I be worried about? Looking at all plays from past games for all players? I don't think that is interesting, don't want to invest that much time, and wouldn't count on it anyways. So I just take your word for it about past games, and then I don't count on it.

JohnX wrote:


rwright wrote:

So rob/kait, rob/sarah, and rob/johnx have all been eliminated. Which kind of suprises me that m3 wasn't floated, except that I also approved it which is now shady.

I would have been surprised if it passed. We both knew it was dirty once we see Sarah talk the way she was. If she's a spy and knows either of us is a spy with her then I don't believe she makes up misreading the results, and I don't believe she just goes along with the results that can't possibly happen. I think a spy passing after seeing that is giving away too much info to the rebels (although I'm sure you'd ignore it because it's not a vote).

Maybe votes would have been submitted before they could have even read Sarah's stuff but if they weren't then passing that mission would be a serious blunder.

I wasn't thinking about the whole Sarah thing. I misread it at first too, then realized before I posted. Then I forgot I did that. (EUGENE CHANGE THE FORMAT DUDE! THEY LOOK IDENTICAL!)

I was thinking about whether spy-kait or spy-jerival would feel better about their chances of winning with a pass or a fail.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:


I just needed some wining and dining!

So, Jerival was your 4th pick? Why was John your most likely spy candidate? What did he specifically do that made you think he was a spy. I know you mentioned how he had hammer so he probably wouldn't vote for your mission but beyond that-- why no Johnorama?
I'll answer not because I think you're res but because I want the res to know that I'm willing to lay my cards on the table.

I didn't take Johnorama for the same reason I didn't take you - I expected that Johnorama didn't want any part of a mission with me at the time. He was hammer for goodness sake! He could just refuse me and pick his favorite choice. He made it pretty clear that his favorite wasn't me.

So again, why are you insisting that I should pick somebody that is going to reject me?

From my POV, Jerival was close to 50% res and he was pretty likely to approve!

Let me pose this to you - you have a choice of going on a 2-player mission or of not going and letting someone else pick the mission who isn't going to pick you. Which would you choose?


Why was he close to 50% rebel? I don't see any data points pointing at that. If anything, calculating the m1 passes and his involvement/hunting I would put him at lower than that.

To your question, it would depend on who was picking. I trust(ed?) John and do think John/Rob sounds a lot better of a mission although I would have hoped he would have picked me. Actually.. a thought on this I want to hold until I ask John this.

John, why did you want to take Rob?

I wanted to take Rob in large part because I didn't like Kait. If I don't like Kait, and one of Sarah / Jerival has to be a spy from M2, then Rob has to be a rebel.

Now that said, I didn't really like Jerival either but double-spy M2 is obviously more possible than zero spy M2. Spy-Jerival implies nothing for me, Spy-Kait implies clean Rob.

Add onto that the fact that the only way it even gets to my proposal is if Rob rejects for me and I felt like it was a bit of a debt I owed. Not all that different from how you were on my M2 after you rejected 2.4 (although you likely would have been anyway, but you certainly helped yourself).
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

It's a problem to me that your priority is sending a mission rather than proposing a clean one.

I disagree. That's the right play. What's the good in a clean team that can't be sent? Better to propose the next likliest clean team that CAN be sent. The worst option is not having your team sent (from RES-Kait's point of view and her feelings of how JohnX and Sarah felt about Kait.)
John X

rwright wrote:

What other variables should I be worried about? Looking at all plays from past games for all players? I don't think that is interesting, don't want to invest that much time, and wouldn't count on it anyways. So I just take your word for it about past games, and then I don't count on it.

Maybe past games, but I agree it's not worth looking up or all that interesting. In a vague sense I would say it's anything that doesn't agree with your expectations. If people are harping on a weird point or being super defensive or just making bad arguments or yes making weird votes.

Maybe I'm making a strawman of you but when you say you only care about voting I hear "I don't care about what anyone says and no arguments can change my mind". It leads to things like what might have happened this game where a spy is trying to figure out how and when to make a move to take more control of the game away from me and then find out all they had to do was wait for you to do it for them.

It really doesn't feel like a coincidence that probably my best reads are proposing .1 and .2 and then we have a gauntlet to go through at the end. I don't think you're a spy but I think they could count on you to help them.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

... So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

Also, Jerival had pretty much just called me a spy. Presumably he doesn't love me having the hammer. It would have told us a heck of a lot if he was willing to let me hammer there.

I really don't understand how it's so cemented that Jerival couldn't have voted for Kaitlyn + Rob. It worries me because it makes me feel like picking Jerival was for unsaid reasons (like getting more spies trusted or creating the dichotomy if Jerival fails).

Jerival hasn't said much, so I am surprised you seem to have forgotten. Jerival said he thought JohnX/Rob is the spyteam. In fact, he proposed the sarah/kait team because of that. So, I thought Jerival wouldn't upvote kait/rob. Maybe you disagree, but I can understand why Kait believed it.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

It's a problem to me that your priority is sending a mission rather than proposing a clean one.

I disagree. That's the right play. What's the good in a clean team that can't be sent? Better to propose the next likliest clean team that CAN be sent. The worst option is not having your team sent (from RES-Kait's point of view and her feelings of how JohnX and Sarah felt about Kait.)

You buy yourself a hell of a lot more trust and "I told you so's" with a mission that doesn't get sent than with a mission that fails. I don't see how the worst option is having .4 on an important mission in front of a hammer that at least some people don't trust.

We're clearly in the worst option. Let me send a mission and it has the benefit of being someones best read instead of worst, if it passes were clearly in a better spot and if it fails then Kait obviously has the de facto hammer because no one would let it get here anyway.

Anyone who justifies bringing their 4th best option when there are literally only 4 other players is off their rocker worrying about hammers and orders instead of just playing the darn game.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

... So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

Also, Jerival had pretty much just called me a spy. Presumably he doesn't love me having the hammer. It would have told us a heck of a lot if he was willing to let me hammer there.

I really don't understand how it's so cemented that Jerival couldn't have voted for Kaitlyn + Rob. It worries me because it makes me feel like picking Jerival was for unsaid reasons (like getting more spies trusted or creating the dichotomy if Jerival fails).

Jerival hasn't said much, so I am surprised you seem to have forgotten. Jerival said he thought JohnX/Rob is the spyteam. In fact, he proposed the sarah/kait team because of that. So, I thought Jerival wouldn't upvote kait/rob. Maybe you disagree, but I can understand why Kait believed it.

I didn't forget, I just got the impression you were the lesser of our two evils.
John X

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

... So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

Also, Jerival had pretty much just called me a spy. Presumably he doesn't love me having the hammer. It would have told us a heck of a lot if he was willing to let me hammer there.

I really don't understand how it's so cemented that Jerival couldn't have voted for Kaitlyn + Rob. It worries me because it makes me feel like picking Jerival was for unsaid reasons (like getting more spies trusted or creating the dichotomy if Jerival fails).

Jerival hasn't said much, so I am surprised you seem to have forgotten. Jerival said he thought JohnX/Rob is the spyteam. In fact, he proposed the sarah/kait team because of that. So, I thought Jerival wouldn't upvote kait/rob. Maybe you disagree, but I can understand why Kait believed it.

I didn't forget, I just got the impression you were the lesser of our two evils.

Especially when it steals the hammer from me to give it to Kait.
John X
It's a good question to try and get him into the game though I guess.

Jerival, how do you think you would have voted to Kait proposing Kait/Rob?
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Why was he close to 50% rebel? I don't see any data points pointing at that. If anything, calculating the m1 passes and his involvement/hunting I would put him at lower than that.


He was close to 50% rebel because the rest of you are capable of being very clever spies. Any one of you is almost equally likely to be a rebel or a spy. So M1 passed. Would M1 pass if you were both spies? Almost certainly. And the probability of you both being dealt res cards or both being dealt spy cards is the same.


Why would m1 have passed if we were both spies? Do I have to cite my policy on m1. If I was a spy with Johnorama that is 100000% more reason for me to fail m1. I would have had a conditional fail in on that, failing a 2 person mission with both spies on it is one of the best things about Resistance (yeah, maybe I am a weirdo).

There's the risk I would have too though, that'd be a short game.

I probably wouldn't in 5p, but I don't believe you'd know that.
John X

Jerival wrote:

This is sad and hilarious simultaneously..

Kaitlyn is the spy..

Better start entertaining the notion that I was just majorly setup or this game is over..

Is Sarah a spy or am I a spy?

Putting all the effort on us to figure it out doesn't seem very sporting.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

What other variables should I be worried about? Looking at all plays from past games for all players? I don't think that is interesting, don't want to invest that much time, and wouldn't count on it anyways. So I just take your word for it about past games, and then I don't count on it.

Maybe past games, but I agree it's not worth looking up or all that interesting. In a vague sense I would say it's anything that doesn't agree with your expectations. If people are harping on a weird point or being super defensive or just making bad arguments or yes making weird votes.

Maybe I'm making a strawman of you but when you say you only care about voting I hear "I don't care about what anyone says and no arguments can change my mind". It leads to things like what might have happened this game where a spy is trying to figure out how and when to make a move to take more control of the game away from me and then find out all they had to do was wait for you to do it for them.

It really doesn't feel like a coincidence that probably my best reads are proposing .1 and .2 and then we have a gauntlet to go through at the end. I don't think you're a spy but I think they could count on you to help them.

It's not that I don't consider that stuff at all. I do consider it. But I think most of the players in this game are good enough to play as a spy and yet sound believable, trustworthy, and like a resistance member.
John X

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

What other variables should I be worried about? Looking at all plays from past games for all players? I don't think that is interesting, don't want to invest that much time, and wouldn't count on it anyways. So I just take your word for it about past games, and then I don't count on it.

Maybe past games, but I agree it's not worth looking up or all that interesting. In a vague sense I would say it's anything that doesn't agree with your expectations. If people are harping on a weird point or being super defensive or just making bad arguments or yes making weird votes.

Maybe I'm making a strawman of you but when you say you only care about voting I hear "I don't care about what anyone says and no arguments can change my mind". It leads to things like what might have happened this game where a spy is trying to figure out how and when to make a move to take more control of the game away from me and then find out all they had to do was wait for you to do it for them.

It really doesn't feel like a coincidence that probably my best reads are proposing .1 and .2 and then we have a gauntlet to go through at the end. I don't think you're a spy but I think they could count on you to help them.

It's not that I don't consider that stuff at all. I do consider it. But I think most of the players in this game are good enough to play as a spy and yet sound believable, trustworthy, and like a resistance member.

I guess then I wonder what it is about the votes that raises them above everything else. I feel like everyone's good enough at the game to vote believeably, trustworthily, and like a resistance member too. Kind of fatalistic to say none of it matters but I just don't see why that specific part matters the most.

Clicking the button in a logical way seems to me a hell of a lot easier to fake than conversation is.
John X
Anyway I guess I have to make a proposal now.

M4.1 Johnorama: Johnorama, Rob, Sarah
Voting links: YES/NO
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Anyway I guess I have to make a proposal now.

M4.1 Johnorama: Johnorama, Rob, Sarah
Voting links: YES/NO


This supports my theory. The only way I can win if I think you're res is to hammer.
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Alright I'm pretty talkable for the next while, it'll take some time to address everything I want to though so bear with me I guess. I actually had a post that I was typing up earlier in the afternoon that was basically me coming up with questions for different teams that was scrapped because it wasn't really relevant anymore as people started answering some questions I had.

Anyway, first up is Kait and her giant post is the first thing I want to address. I'm doing a pseudo time-warp so even though I've skimmed things in the future I didn't read very closely and maybe this has already been asked or brought up.

First this:
Let's consider the case where Jerival is a spy but I'm his partner. This is a strong possibility in Sarah's mind since she passed up a chance to go on M3.2 so that she could go with JohnX, who is only a res in her mind if Jerival is my spy buddy.

I might just not be following your possibilities closely, but why can't Sarah think spies are Jerival + Rob? I'm assuming you're not ignoring that I just didn't follow why this world is the most likely if Jerival's a spy to her.

Next, I don't totally buy your arguments about double-spy M3. I agree the coordination is hard and I agree that you would think it's hard. I don't think there's a world where you fail double-spy M3... But I do think there's a world where you propose double-spy M3 and pass it and Jerival can reason that you're going to pass it because it's scary and risks failing it himself. It's high risk high reward but I have already called out that spy team as possible and I can see him feeling the need to make something happen to get people off the scent. Your talk of "wouldn't it be better if we passed then blah blah" is exactly what I think you'd be going for in that world and would be able to use as a defense if Jerival went for the gutsy play.
first, when Sarah refuses M3.2 Sarah, Kaitlyn she doesn't think the spies are Her, Rob.

And yes, I agree with your analysis, but I can't imagine a world where Jerival and I are spies and I don't propose Rob, me.
Kaitlyn Smith
John, you're not going to believe me anyway so even if I think you're res, I have to assume you're a spy to have any chance at all,unless it gets to my hammer, which is unlikely with spies possibly voting up off mission.
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

It's a problem to me that your priority is sending a mission rather than proposing a clean one.
it's a problem for me when you don't think I should take a roughly 50% chance rather than a roughly 25% chance.
Kaitlyn Smith
I see the error of my ways. If the spy team was M1 then the would not have both turned on me and left me no option but go with the winning team sure to be pivoted.

I apologize to the res between Sarah and JohnX for missing this. I believe that the res looses in M4.1 and TBH I can't blame you. I suspect it will get four approves.

Anyway. I'm busy tomorrow and if it goes, congrats to the spies and thanks to Eugene for running it. I'm pretty sure I can't win this anymore after seeing the last round of posts. Maybe next game you'll realize I'm res when I play this way. Or maybe I'll adapt more to your playstyles.
Eugene Wong

rwright wrote:

I wasn't thinking about the whole Sarah thing. I misread it at first too, then realized before I posted. Then I forgot I did that. (EUGENE CHANGE THE FORMAT DUDE! THEY LOOK IDENTICAL!)


Are you talking about the mission card links, and the mission results, being too similar?
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

rwright wrote:

I wasn't thinking about the whole Sarah thing. I misread it at first too, then realized before I posted. Then I forgot I did that. (EUGENE CHANGE THE FORMAT DUDE! THEY LOOK IDENTICAL!)


Are you talking about the mission card links, and the mission results, being too similar?

Ya. On the cards maybe put "click here to play a SUCCESS" etc
Eugene Wong
I like Rob's suggestion.

###

Rob, and all, do you find the cards and links to be user friendly in the other games?

###

Maybe like this?

Send in your missions cards: Success/Fail.


Mission Results: SUCCESS; fail


The wording is different, and the capitalization is different.
John X

eugenetswong wrote:

I like Rob's suggestion.

###

Rob, and all, do you find the cards and links to be user friendly in the other games?

###

Maybe like this?

Send in your missions cards: Success/Fail.


Mission Results: SUCCESS; fail


The wording is different, and the capitalization is different.

I can't say that I care to be honest, but if anyone does want a change I think they should be accommodated.
Rob W
I'll postpone this until aftwr the game. Don't want to ruin the mood or distract.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Kait, can you show me posts that made you think Jerival was good-- or such a better rebel option than anyone else? If you REALLY wanted it upvoted to steal the hammer then I can understand not including Rob but I don't get not including John or I. It felt like you just a) wanted to be on a mission and b)wanted to steal the hammer.
Let me try this, which isn't going to work if you're pretty and desirable but if you're like me, you will understand.

There's a lot of cute guys out there that are successful and have their sh*t together and it would be awesome if one of them wanted me. However, I'm anything but cute (and some say my personality leaves something to be desired as well) so I don't really get to pick the most awesome looking and most successful guy; I have to pair up with somebody that wants to pair up with me.

Well, guess what, you're like that cute guy! I tried to pair up with that awesome pick in M3.2 - the one that I thought was a res! And guess what, just as in my real life soulmate search, that one didn't want me. So I have to settle for someone who does want me. John wasn't exactly enamored with me either. Rob seemed like a better rebel option but while Rob wouldn't reject me, I saw no third vote anywhere in sight.

It wouldn't matter if Jer was my fourth best pick; being on a mission with my fourth best pick is better than not being on at all, since I'm res.

So it's not like Jerival was a better rebel choice. It was more like he was the only choice available to me. For I tried you (in this example you were like the dream date) but you rejected me (as a dream date would - he's going to wait for and get somebody beautiful.)

I don't understand why you can't see me not including you or John. That would be like me trying to hook up with some really cute guy - he's going to look at me and say "You can't be serious!" Well, if I chose you or John, I so totally expected either of you to say "You can't be serious!" and let it go to M3.5.

Sometimes you have to take what's available to you. If you haven't had a lot of rejection in your life, you just won't get it.

It's a problem to me that your priority is sending a mission rather than proposing a clean one.
it's a problem for me when you don't think I should take a roughly 50% chance rather than a roughly 25% chance.

I admit I'm almost definitely letting both hindsight and my extra knowledge cloud my judgement but it just was so obvious so far away that mission couldn't be good.

That's why I wanted Sarah + Rob to be proposed so literally anything else might be sent.
Kaitlyn Smith
If Sarah and Rob is clean then you aren't.
Kaitlyn Smith
Just as Sarah could have approved Sarah and me to avoid the inevitable Jerival and me, you could have foreseen the inevitability of m3.4 and taken Sarah and me instead. Chances are good that with both Jerival and you approving, you might be cleared even if Sarah failed it.
Kaitlyn Smith
Only problem is that rebel John X would never be convinced that I wasn't responsible for the fail. So I'm back to not being able to win if you are res, unless Sarah is the other res and you could be convinced that t gge m3.2 you sent was clean.
Eugene Wong
Rob votes yes.

M4.1 Proposal By Johnorama URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27428423#27428423]link to announcement[/url: Johnorama; Rob; Sarah
M4.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!
John X

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes yes.



Next!

Interesting, I expected unanimous NOs.

EDIT: spelling
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

I see the error of my ways. If the spy team was M1 then the would not have both turned on me and left me no option but go with the winning team sure to be pivoted.

I apologize to the res between Sarah and JohnX for missing this. I believe that the res looses in M4.1 and TBH I can't blame you. I suspect it will get four approves.

Anyway. I'm busy tomorrow and if it goes, congrats to the spies and thanks to Eugene for running it. I'm pretty sure I can't win this anymore after seeing the last round of posts. Maybe next game you'll realize I'm res when I play this way. Or maybe I'll adapt more to your playstyles.

To be honest the doom-and-gloom stuff is souring you to me more than it is helping.

It's .1 of a mission that everyone knows the game rests on, you can have a bit more faith in us to not jump on the first thing that gets thrown out there than that.
Rob W

eugenetswong wrote:

Rob votes yes.

M4.1 Proposal By Johnorama URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27428423#27428423]link to announcement[/url
M4.1 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!

I did vote for it. It isn't my favorite team, so I did think for a while on it.

If dirty: John or Sarah is spy. Spy-kait or spy-jerival likely does NOT vote this up.

If clean: I would expect Kait to start talking about how we should not send the team and to beware of off-mission votes. Kait's response was part of why I did approve. Also, I did not want to be the player that stops the mission if both Sarah and JohnX want this to go.

I expected minimal YES votes. However, I don't like JohnX proposing a team he expects to be unanimous NO. Better to propose a team that is better. Unless this is JohnX's favorite team, in which case it is weird that he voted against it. Maybe out of caution?

After saying that, my favorite team is rough. I will propose my favorite team.
Rob W
M4.2 Rob: Kait, Rob, Sarah
Voting links: YES/NO
John X
Well that's yucky.
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

I see the error of my ways. If the spy team was M1 then the would not have both turned on me and left me no option but go with the winning team sure to be pivoted.

I apologize to the res between Sarah and JohnX for missing this. I believe that the res looses in M4.1 and TBH I can't blame you. I suspect it will get four approves.

Anyway. I'm busy tomorrow and if it goes, congrats to the spies and thanks to Eugene for running it. I'm pretty sure I can't win this anymore after seeing the last round of posts. Maybe next game you'll realize I'm res when I play this way. Or maybe I'll adapt more to your playstyles.

To be honest the doom-and-gloom stuff is souring you to me more than it is helping.

It's .1 of a mission that everyone knows the game rests on, you can have a bit more faith in us to not jump on the first thing that gets thrown out there than that.
I didn't think you would vote for it, John. However, I did fear approves from Jerival, Sarah, and Rob, and wanted to discourage whomever are res among Sarah and Rob from voting it up.
John X

rwright wrote:

I expected minimal YES votes. However, I don't like JohnX proposing a team he expects to be unanimous NO. Better to propose a team that is better. Unless this is JohnX's favorite team, in which case it is weird that he voted against it. Maybe out of caution?

After saying that, my favorite team is rough. I will propose my favorite team.

Out of curiosity, was my NO vote the reason I'm not on this or was that planned farther in advance?
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

I expected minimal YES votes. However, I don't like JohnX proposing a team he expects to be unanimous NO. Better to propose a team that is better. Unless this is JohnX's favorite team, in which case it is weird that he voted against it. Maybe out of caution?

After saying that, my favorite team is rough. I will propose my favorite team.

Out of curiosity, was my NO vote the reason I'm not on this or was that planned farther in advance?

Can I answer this after the results?
Eugene Wong
Rob votes yes. Others vote no.

M4.2 Proposal By Rob URL=https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27435011#27435011]link to announcement[/url: Kait; Rob; Sarah
M4.2 Vote Record:

Rob - YES
Jerival - no
Sarah - no
Kait - no
Johnorama - no


Next!
Sarah
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.
John X

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.
Rob W

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

Well, you're better than me. I proposed my favorite team but it looks like no one is on the same page at this point. If you figured it out from no one agreeing, then I am impressed.

John proposed my #2 team and I went with my #1, but it looks like I am on an island here.
Rob W

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

rwright wrote:

I expected minimal YES votes. However, I don't like JohnX proposing a team he expects to be unanimous NO. Better to propose a team that is better. Unless this is JohnX's favorite team, in which case it is weird that he voted against it. Maybe out of caution?

After saying that, my favorite team is rough. I will propose my favorite team.

Out of curiosity, was my NO vote the reason I'm not on this or was that planned farther in advance?

Can I answer this after the results?

Sarah and Kait was my preferred team after the m3 result. So it was not the reason at all, but it did look shady to me. I doesn't make sense to me for a RES to not propose their preferred team and vote for it, at this point. Unless you are trying to gain info, but that is unlikely I think unless we get an off-vote.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.

I really hope you guys aren't thinking I am spy simply because I am the only one approving. That would be extremely faulty logic. I have yet to go on a mission. I know the least here. Both my teammates know more than I do and it would be foolish for me to pick the team by not approving when my teammates do. I voted for my #2 and #1 most likely teams from my point of view. I have been clear ahead of the m4.1 proposal that I was considering kait/jerival as a spyteam.

In my experience, it is not advantageous for RES to downvote everything until .4 or hammer. I win as RES when I send the missions I want.

I really have no idea what you guys are thinking. The only thing I get from m4.1 and m4.2 is that JohnX is more likely spy because he trashed a proposal. And I was not going to do that.
Kaitlyn Smith

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.

I really hope you guys aren't thinking I am spy simply because I am the only one approving. That would be extremely faulty logic. I have yet to go on a mission. I know the least here. Both my teammates know more than I do and it would be foolish for me to pick the team by not approving when my teammates do.*snip*
I don't understand that logic. There's no Merlin in this game so you don't have to pretend to know anything. Since you do know the least, you should be the most wary of a spy aboard and Jerival adding their votes to yours to tank M4 and with it the game.

In fact, from your POV, I could be a spy with either Sarah or John X, and by rejecting M4.1, you could have potentially caught me offsides hoping for my spymate, me, and you to vote it up. Granted, there's not much of a chance of that since it appears that I'm still trying to get on M4 but I'm surprised that it didn't cross your mind.

The M4.2 vote is more dangerous unless you're right. Jerival has seen M4.1 and M4.2 proposed and there's a good chance that he realizes that he's not getting on M4 and isn't risking a whole lot by approving a mission containing his spymate.
John X
Kind of rich being told about faulty logic from the guy posting this.

rwright wrote:

If dirty: John or Sarah is spy. Spy-kait or spy-jerival likely does NOT vote this up.

If clean: I would expect Kait to start talking about how we should not send the team and to beware of off-mission votes. Kait's response was part of why I did approve. Also, I did not want to be the player that stops the mission if both Sarah and JohnX want this to go.

What about where Sarah's a gutsy spy and I vote like you want me to? We lose. It's over. We're done.

Let's say Sarah and I are rebels and we did like it and we do vote for it but you don't, what then? Well we talk about it, figure out each other's motivations and now you get to make a more informed choice that can very easily be that mission again.

Voting yes has pretty much everything to lose and nothing to gain for a rebel if we're only thinking in those terms. But we haven't touched on the only reason I actually did think about voting for it.

I want to keep spies honest. I wanted very much to vote for that mission because it was indeed my favourite but it wasn't a wide enough margin for me to be comfortable. The main reason was for future proposals I want spies thinking they have a chance to send something. You're right we probably won't see any off-mission votes but it's more likely if I have them thinking they have a chance to send things.

Ultimately though I didn't in part just because I wasn't that confident but also because I was worried about my credibility. My mission wasn't going and I'd be seriously hurting my chances in the future to appear to be happy with anything.

It's especially interesting to me to see the first to talk about keeping preferences to ourselves be the one throwing out upvotes willy-nilly.
John X

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.

I really hope you guys aren't thinking I am spy simply because I am the only one approving. That would be extremely faulty logic. I have yet to go on a mission. I know the least here. Both my teammates know more than I do and it would be foolish for me to pick the team by not approving when my teammates do.*snip*
I don't understand that logic. There's no Merlin in this game so you don't have to pretend to know anything. Since you do know the least, you should be the most wary of a spy aboard and Jerival adding their votes to yours to tank M4 and with it the game.

In fact, from your POV, I could be a spy with either Sarah or John X, and by rejecting M4.1, you could have potentially caught me offsides hoping for my spymate, me, and you to vote it up. Granted, there's not much of a chance of that since it appears that I'm still trying to get on M4 but I'm surprised that it didn't cross your mind.

The M4.2 vote is more dangerous unless you're right. Jerival has seen M4.1 and M4.2 proposed and there's a good chance that he realizes that he's not getting on M4 and isn't risking a whole lot by approving a mission containing his spymate.

I agree with his read that an off-mission spy wouldn't vote for it that early.

I don't understand why he considers rebels John and Sarah voting for it but not when one's a spy.
Kaitlyn Smith

Johnorama wrote:

*snip*I don't understand why he considers rebels John and Sarah voting for it but not when one's a spy.
The more important question is: why would he want John and Sarah to vote for it if it isn't his favorite team?
Kaitlyn Smith
Question for you, Rob: What has John X done this game that is spyish, or do you think Jerival's actions implicate John X?
Kaitlyn Smith
By the way, Rob, I think there's a very good answer to that question. I just want to hear it from you.

That being said, while I can make a case for spy JohnX, I think the cases for spy Rob or spy Sarah are both stronger so for the first time this game, John X is my most rebel read.
John Agre
M4.3 Jerival: Rob, Jerival, John
Voting links: YES/NO

Get on the same page as me fellas.. this is the winning team!
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.

I really hope you guys aren't thinking I am spy simply because I am the only one approving. That would be extremely faulty logic. I have yet to go on a mission. I know the least here. Both my teammates know more than I do and it would be foolish for me to pick the team by not approving when my teammates do.*snip*
I don't understand that logic. There's no Merlin in this game so you don't have to pretend to know anything. Since you do know the least, you should be the most wary of a spy aboard and Jerival adding their votes to yours to tank M4 and with it the game.

In fact, from your POV, I could be a spy with either Sarah or John X, and by rejecting M4.1, you could have potentially caught me offsides hoping for my spymate, me, and you to vote it up. Granted, there's not much of a chance of that since it appears that I'm still trying to get on M4 but I'm surprised that it didn't cross your mind.

The M4.2 vote is more dangerous unless you're right. Jerival has seen M4.1 and M4.2 proposed and there's a good chance that he realizes that he's not getting on M4 and isn't risking a whole lot by approving a mission containing his spymate.

I said it crossed my mind and why I did not consider it. Read the post right before my m4.2. I was 99% sure you or jerival would not upvote. It was NOT risky at all. Very similar story with m4.2. And I am proven right by thw fact that NO ONE else voted for either one.
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kind of rich being told about faulty logic from the guy posting this.

rwright wrote:

If dirty: John or Sarah is spy. Spy-kait or spy-jerival likely does NOT vote this up.

If clean: I would expect Kait to start talking about how we should not send the team and to beware of off-mission votes. Kait's response was part of why I did approve. Also, I did not want to be the player that stops the mission if both Sarah and JohnX want this to go.

What about where Sarah's a gutsy spy and I vote like you want me to? We lose. It's over. We're done.

Let's say Sarah and I are rebels and we did like it and we do vote for it but you don't, what then? Well we talk about it, figure out each other's motivations and now you get to make a more informed choice that can very easily be that mission again.

Voting yes has pretty much everything to lose and nothing to gain for a rebel if we're only thinking in those terms. But we haven't touched on the only reason I actually did think about voting for it.

I want to keep spies honest. I wanted very much to vote for that mission because it was indeed my favourite but it wasn't a wide enough margin for me to be comfortable. The main reason was for future proposals I want spies thinking they have a chance to send something. You're right we probably won't see any off-mission votes but it's more likely if I have them thinking they have a chance to send things.

Ultimately though I didn't in part just because I wasn't that confident but also because I was worried about my credibility. My mission wasn't going and I'd be seriously hurting my chances in the future to appear to be happy with anything.

It's especially interesting to me to see the first to talk about keeping preferences to ourselves be the one throwing out upvotes willy-nilly.

I am going to address these posts one at a timw before I even read the others. I already slammed down my vote for m4.3 by CO before it was even posted. Lol

I thought of that EXACT reason when I upvoted 4.1. If I set a precedent for upvoting, I can tempt the spies into trying an off mission vote on my .2 or on sarahs .4. It dodn't work with .2. Kait and sarah will feel dumb if it didn't work because it was clean. Lol
Rob W

Johnorama wrote:

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

rwright wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

SarahBoBara wrote:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I have it figured out.

I imagine I'm on the same page at this point. I'm not sure I actually think it's correct but I don't think I can justify trying anything else.

I really hope you guys aren't thinking I am spy simply because I am the only one approving. That would be extremely faulty logic. I have yet to go on a mission. I know the least here. Both my teammates know more than I do and it would be foolish for me to pick the team by not approving when my teammates do.*snip*
I don't understand that logic. There's no Merlin in this game so you don't have to pretend to know anything. Since you do know the least, you should be the most wary of a spy aboard and Jerival adding their votes to yours to tank M4 and with it the game.

In fact, from your POV, I could be a spy with either Sarah or John X, and by rejecting M4.1, you could have potentially caught me offsides hoping for my spymate, me, and you to vote it up. Granted, there's not much of a chance of that since it appears that I'm still trying to get on M4 but I'm surprised that it didn't cross your mind.

The M4.2 vote is more dangerous unless you're right. Jerival has seen M4.1 and M4.2 proposed and there's a good chance that he realizes that he's not getting on M4 and isn't risking a whole lot by approving a mission containing his spymate.

I agree with his read that an off-mission spy wouldn't vote for it that early.

I don't understand why he considers rebels John and Sarah voting for it but not when one's a spy.

I did consider that. Are you kidding me?

So what would I say in a world where rob and sarah upvoted but johnx didn't? I would say that Sarah's vote was nuetral and Johnx was spyish for trashing a proposal.

If johnx and rob upvoted, i read john as nuetral and sarah as nuetral. In no world do I lean spyish on a res because they vote yes to a team they think is clean. That's not spyish. If you think it is, I would question your win rate as a res with spies that just downvote everything. They beat you everytime.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Johnorama wrote:

*snip*I don't understand why he considers rebels John and Sarah voting for it but not when one's a spy.
The more important question is: why would he want John and Sarah to vote for it if it isn't his favorite team?

I never said I wanted John and Sarah to vote for it. I said that if they were both RES, I wasn't going to be the one to stop them, as the one with the least info. If one is spy and the other RES, then with this as my #2 team and with another RES on-mission approving, I would say we lost with about as good as we (as a team) could have done.
Rob W

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Question for you, Rob: What has John X done this game that is spyish, or do you think Jerival's actions implicate John X?

My top 3 teams are so close that if I can even send one of them it would be better than going without me. (I am in a similar boat as you with m3.) But when it comes to it, I think the best spy moves all game was spy-johnx and spy-kait. Spy johnx floats m1, then brings his buddy on m2. Johnx floats m1 because he bets the res don't have the guts to avoid his m2 hammer. I know I would have. If he fails, he loses hammer for sure. Jerival does his thing on m3 to slime me (for upvoting) and kait (for proposing and hammer-grabbing) while also making johnx appear cleaner. Sarah is a crazy cautious finger pointing rebel and kait is level headed and not wonky like spy-kait.

Spy-kait did make a good move by hammer grabbing with her spy-bud and I think you have the guts and brains to pull it off, while maintaining your cool. It's my #2 team and #2 is worth a shot in my book. See m4.1 upvote.

Gtg. Wife is calling me. But i think i expressed my feelings with this dead on. To be clear, johnx and kait is not a spy-team I am considering. I think that one of you made a game-winning move and I caught it.

And sarah is a rebel in my world and was on 4.2 and 4.1. I couldnt have done better with my upvotes. Except they might lose the game.
Eugene Wong

Jerival wrote:

M4.3 Jerival: Rob, Jerival, John
Voting links: YES/NO

Get on the same page as me fellas.. this is the winning team!


Jerival votes yes. Others vote no.



Next!
Sarah
I want to reread the game tonight. I will propose something later tonight.
John X
Not that I was particularly concerned about it, but now Sarah/Kaitlyn isn't a spy team worth considering as we're guaranteed to lose.

That means for me Jerival is 100% a spy like he is for Kaitlyn, although it definitely can still be both of them.
Sarah
So, I was in a car accident on my way home from work. A guy rear-ended me on the highway before he spun out and hit the guardrail on one side then back on my side. I'm still a bit out of it and don't think I have it in me to read the game tonight. I CAN make a proposal if we want to keep the game moving but was hoping I could ask for a little longer, perhaps propose tomorrow night?

For discussion purposes, before I reread my head is currently in a place of two rebel teams:

Sarah/Kait/John or Sarah/Kait/Rob

Kait's recent stuff has felt sincere and I 1000% believe Jerival is a spy at this point. It could be Kait/Jerival but with her recent stuff, I just don't see it.

Rob's recent stuff has been really shady but almost 'too shady to be a spy'. His voting is pinging me and it felt like he was trying to dirty up reads earlier in the game.

John has felt pretty good to me most of the game and it does seem weird to think I was on a double spy mission. I'm getting a weird gut feeling that he's playing the long game. Jerival's behavior makes me think his spy-buddy is so deep undercover that Jerival can be 'outed' and that makes me think it's John.

Those are my thoughts before reread. I want to go back and see those interactions by working under an assumption of a Jerival spy, Sarah/Kait rebel team and go from there.
Rob W
Take your time and recover please.
Kaitlyn Smith
MOD REQUEST: I'd like to request that time limits be relaxed while Sarah recovers from her accident. If anyone objects, let us know.

Edit spelling
Kaitlyn Smith

SarahBoBara wrote:

*snip*John has felt pretty good to me most of the game and it does seem weird to think I was on a double spy mission. I'm getting a weird gut feeling that he's playing the long game. Jerival's behavior makes me think his spy-buddy is so deep undercover that Jerival can be 'outed' and that makes me think it's John.
if Jerival felt that way, wouldn't he be voting up missions randomly in M4?
Eugene Wong
I don't mean to come across as a heartless troll, but I'd appreciate it, if John & John could chime in on how you feel about Sarah proposing later. I could easily make an executive decision, and I'm happy to give her more time, but the game belongs to the players, and I think that all 5 of you have a say.

It's no skin off of my back, either way.

I'm confident that I know how they'll respond, but I prefer to let people speak for themselves, and I encourage descenting voices. If a single player can present a good argument, then I think he [or she!] deserves a chance to try.

###

Sarah, in the mean time, you do have until 0630ish BGG time. When you check in, if the Johns haven't chimed in, then would you make an unbolded proposal with no links, please? If we decide to enforce the time limit, then that will be your proposal, but if we don't, then you can make a bolded proposal later.
John X
Oh obviously it can wait.
John Agre
its fine
Kaitlyn Smith
It occurred to me this morning that a spy might want to hold Sarah to the 24 hours but wouldn't dare say so. (Yeah, of course I would post this as a spy but I'm not.) It's too late this time, but perhaps in the future, if such a situation arises, the communication with the mod should be through geekmail rather than posted.
Eugene Wong
Kait, I wondered about that, but I could imagine rebels wanting the same limit, or lack thereof, as the spies. It would be interesting to discuss it at the end of the game.

###

I hope that Sarah is okay.
Sarah

Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

So John X claims to be a res who thought Rob and I were the spies? shake


Hmm. Rereading now fyi. Im taking notes
Sarah

rwright wrote:

Right now, Sarah is top of my spy-list for her 3 on-mission NO votes. (A spy does NOT have to get on missions to win.)

Spy-Sarah votes NO because:
A)she wants to seem cleaner
B)her spy-partner is on mission
C)she wouldn't like the proposal order for the next mission, including hammer placement
D)to fail with that team would lower her chance of winning.

M1.2: Jerival is also spy OR Jerival is clean and she wants hammer to stay on John. NOTE: She had next proposal.
M2.2: similar story.
M2.4: either she is double spy with Kait OR she does not want the m3 (and subsequent) hammers to move from John X to Kait.

I have a neutral read on Jerival. I have a positive read on Kait and a negative read on John X due to the logic above with Sarah. It is looking very likely that m2 was double spy.

Ohhhhh, rob
Sarah

Jerival wrote:

Pretty sure John (the other one) slow played M1 and now I look fantastic. So.. I'm not picking myself and going with who I believe my teammates are..

Not sure if I am breaking every rule in the forum resistance book by doing so.. but whatever..

Rob is trying to shade me by not shading me..
John has to be his partner..

Anyhow, sarah & Kait.. this is the mission I will vote for if this doesn't pass and you propose it.. barring any funny business.. Not interested in having this go to the hammer again.


This makes me see a john/john team..
Sarah

Johnorama wrote:

I'm curious Rob, let's assume I'm a rebel, what do you think I'd do differently?

I can't really tell if you think I'm a spy because of something I've done/am doing or just because it fits nicely with your reads on others.


Assume you are one?
Eugene Wong
Sarah, welcome back. I was getting concerned. I hope that things are going well.